Episode 4

Jacqueline Simmons:

Okay. Hi, Sarah.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

Hi, Jackie.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

It's a Thursday. And we're standing in front of Teachers College, the main entrance at Zankel.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

Yep. It's 4:00 PM, so classes start at 5:00. A couple of students are walking in the door right now.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Yeah, let's follow them in.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

So we've just walked past the security desk. It's actually getting a little louder and busier here as folks move through the hallway. It's chilly. The acoustics are not conducive to conversation, as we're finding. And yeah, you've just swiped in. You're trying to juggle all your things. When we walked in, we were trying to find a table. And we couldn't really find one, so we went inside the lounge.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Tables and chairs definitely enable ... It's attention to our bodies. It's like we're going to hang out.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

We're not going to do it–

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

We need to be able to settle. Okay, so let's go see what's happening in Everett (student) Lounge.

 

Welcome to Curriculum Encounters, a podcast about exploring knowledge wherever you find it.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

And thinking about what kind of knowledge matters for teaching and designing curriculum. I'm Sarah Gerth van den Berg.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

And my name is Jackie Simmons. We teach in the Department of Curriculum and Teaching at Columbia University's Teachers College, and we're both experienced curriculum designers. We really love to wonder about how educators make decisions about what to teach and why.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

This episode is about how learners encounter the intended curriculum of a learning environment. By looking at the design decisions made in social spaces around Teachers College campus, we consider opportunities for learners to co-design curricular experiences. What makes a social space?

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

For me, it's people. It's people in conversation or in proximity.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

What we're trying to look at is spaces that were really designed with the idea that people would gather and meet together for all kinds of reasons: so the cafe, the workspace in the library, the cafeteria.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

And so because they have been intentionally designed, we're looking at them as part of the informal curriculum; intended, but maybe not explicit. And we're really going to be paying attention to: What are some of those effects of the choices that have been made? How do our bodies move? How do we relate to other people? What do we want to do with our time in these spaces? How are they decorated? And what does all of that do for our sense of how we want to be, whether it's in a deliberate teaching and learning sense, or just in an attentive sense?

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

We've been looking at spaces and their effects on the people in them this whole season. We've looked at the aesthetics of a space. We've looked at hidden spaces. We've looked at the way memory gets sparked for us in different spaces. And we've done that in spaces that are first intended to be academic. And here, I think the distinction is that we're looking at spaces that are intending first to be social space, but still applying this framework of, what are the aesthetic decisions made here? What's the sensory conditions of this space to really get into that informal curriculum and its effects on how people gather and relate to each other there?

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

So it's all coming together in this episode of Curriculum Encounters.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

Can you name five sounds you've heard, walking in?

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

That's a really fun question. I heard giggling. I heard zipping.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

I heard the zipping too.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

I heard our footsteps. Probably some click-clack of a keyboard.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

Yes. The click-clack of a keyboard, and I heard a chip bag rustling.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Yeah. There are groups of people. There's some chatting.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

They all have computers or papers in front of them, so it suggests a place that's conducive to group work. And it does have a really nice quality to this room, like the large windows, you can see out to the sidewalk. It's one of those nice places, rare in New York, where you can come and work without having to pay for coffee or jostle for access.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

It reminds me, maybe we should walk over to the cafe and see what's happening over there.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

Now we're in Everett Library Cafe. You can hear some background music.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

The smell of coffee is so strong, and along with the music, it definitely makes this a more casual space. Another thing that's always been interesting about this space is that there are six big TV screens. So right now, I'm looking at four screens that are on different channels. And they're all on sports channels.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

And behind you, there's another very tall screen with a rotating set of front pages from newspapers around the world. There was one, The India Times, and then there was a press from Manila, and upcoming events in the library.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

One thing I learned recently is that they're taking down most of the bulletin boards around campus. It seems that we've entered a new age of advertising events on digital boards, as opposed to the old school pin board with push pins and flyers.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

I imagine that really restricts what gets posted. There'll be a vetting process for that.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

That's very true. There is something really democratic about just a blank space and the ability to post on a blank space. It's like a telephone pole out in the street: you can see any kind of flyer stapled to it about junk for sale, missing pets, events coming up. But in an institution, there is a sense of what you're allowed to publicize and what represents the institution and who gets to define that. So the loss of the open bulletin board is definitely the loss of a way of being a community. Let's head up into the library and see maybe how the climate changes as we move into study spaces.

 

Sarah, this floor is packed. There are so many students on the second floor of the library, and every seat is occupied. I guess we can go stand over here. It looks like this is where everyone is before the 5:00 PM class. And I'd like to think that this is as much a study space as it is a social space. So it seems like there's a little bit of freedom here.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

That's a really good point. And I also noticed a lot of furniture choices that encouraged collaboration. Even these little armchairs have handles in the back that just say, "Grab me." So you could pull the chairs into different configurations really easily. And there's a whiteboard on wheels. And then they've put in these new tables. I'm not even sure how to describe it.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

They're like puzzle pieces. Yeah. They're so cute. They have little notches.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

And they kind of jigsaw together. And presumably, that's so that you could have a bigger group or smaller group, and maybe suggests even the kind of thinking that might happen here.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

And I see there's also a lot of fun color in the back, these bright yellow stools. And that makes it feel a little more playful up here, not to mention these huge teddy bears over by the windows.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

And the rock garden pillows.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Yeah, my stuffy friends are also here if I have some reading to do. So the modularity of it all is really visible and felt. And you don't have to feel self-conscious about making the space what you need it to be, using the furniture however you need to use it, or selecting the kind of furniture that works for you and whatever task you have to complete.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

So we're going downstairs to the dining hall. I am having such a fantastic time people-watching, getting so many fashion ideas from what the kids are wearing these days. I have to come around more often before class.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

We just walked through the cafeteria. There was some loud music playing. And now we're sitting in the dining hall, which is, compared to the second floor of the library, pretty empty. It's almost dinnertime, so it's really strange to see only one or two people in line to get food.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

Yeah, that surprised me. There's a lot of these long dining hall tables that sit maybe 10 students each, but there's only one student at most of the tables.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Yeah, I think the space has us flummoxed. We're not quite sure what's happening in the Teachers College dining hall, which I always think of as one of the central hubs of social activity in any college; the dining hall, it's where you see everyone. It's like a high school cafeteria, where you walk in and then everybody turns around to see who just walked in. And I was expecting that here, but it's quite empty.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

In contrast, the second floor collaboration space of the library feels like the social space. There were just so many more bodies talking, working, watching whatever it was, but taking up that space.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Yeah, so it's really interesting to think about what's happening in each of those spaces that's working.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

I come back to our observations on the dragability of furniture, or so many options to choose from in terms of where you might want to sit and hang.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Let's talk about the cafeteria food options. I noticed there was a big sign on the wall that said, "You have two choices, ramen or salad." It's funny, because this used to be the cafeteria of all the choices. There were burgers and salads and noodles and soup, and there was a pizza oven, pre-made sandwiches and yogurts. You really had your choice of everything. So it's interesting to see how perhaps a limiting of options may also limit the kind of flexibility that people might be looking for in designing their experience.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

I do think I want to expand a little bit, this curriculum as a menu of options. And we've seen in places where there are more choices, like that collaboration space, in some ways, the furniture arrangement is this menu. And you have so many more options than A or B. You could sit at the jigsaw tables. You could sit at the living room armchairs around a coffee table. You could sit in the area with the giant teddy bear and rock pile pillows. So many more options.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Yeah. And I think in the language of curriculum design, it's that sense of possibility that's available when you move away from the formal curriculum, what's intended and written, towards the informal, maybe what might be applied, but then also towards the unexpected, where there might be conflict or tension because you can't predict where it's going to go. And that can feel very frustrating and really even scary for teachers. So we sometimes try to over-plan to correct for any possible deviation from what we can manage. And yet it's in that space, the space of unpredictability where all the fun is, where all the creativity is, where the innovation happens. And we really don't know what we're foreclosing by limiting those opportunities.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

Yeah. And the designers of that second floor stated their aims so explicitly in that sign saying, "Collaboration space. Talking is encouraged." And we didn't go to the third floor, but that's marketed as the quiet space. And we might've seen that being designed well for that purpose. But I don't know if in the dining hall there's a really clear purpose beyond having food options. Is the purpose for people to have an experience around food and eating together? Is the purpose to provide this overflow collaboration space?

 

I think you'd make really different choices around that. And I think that's what we're saying with curriculum. The purposes aren't always the obvious. So I think the question we're coming to is how the co-designers of that space want to take it up and make it their own. And when we say co-designers, the folks who originally designed this space, but then all the people who come after them who inhabit it, who make the space a living one, and they bring their bodies to it, their music, their social interests, their projects.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

I think it's really interesting to think about teachers and learners as co-designers. We talk about curriculum design as something that somebody outside of the classroom does before they enter. But if we shift that and think about everybody as co-designing in this moment of teaching and learning, then there's really more agency for everybody to be involved, paying attention and attuned to these opportunities that we've talked about.

 

I think it's really about how you can define a space, not how it's intended to be defined, but how can a learner who comes to a place make their own decisions about how they want to use their body or use their time or maybe even be creative? You might even call it the intended curriculum of a space, and feeling like that has to match my needs then, because if I have an option and my option is not aligned with your intention, then I might just choose otherwise. And so I think that what you described is really a curricular mapping of social spaces and how our design choices can really impact what somebody can get out of a formal curriculum.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

It's making me think about curriculum as this encounter between the designer and all of the many people who bring it to life through their own interests.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

It's not enough to have just a goal or a learning objective. We really do have to consider all the other aspects that we've talked about across this season of podcasts: the learner, the people, the teacher, the knowledge that you can perceive through your observation, through your attention to content and senses and relationships and memory and imagination. All of it comes together and it becomes available in this beautiful way so that if we're paying attention, we could do some really wonderful things with it.

 

Sarah Gerth van den Berg:

And I think that's why it's important that we're calling this podcast season a series of Curriculum Encounters, and the encounter not between two static bodies or things, but two really dynamic beings, people with their own intentions and ideas and agencies. And sometimes we meet each other in that encounter at different times.

 

Jacqueline Simmons:

Curriculum Encounters is a production of The Digital Futures Institute at Teachers College, Columbia University. It was edited by Jen Lee and the both of us. Our theme music is designed by Noah Teachey. Listen to episodes of this podcast on our website or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have comments, email us at curriculumencounters@tc.edu. Thanks for listening.