Episode 6: Cosplay

• Pop & Play, Season 3, Episode 2: Fashion Forward with Yolanda Sealey-Ruiz and Olivia Ruiz
• Pop & Play, Season 1, Episode 4: Sewing is NOT a "girl sport" with Yasmin Kafai

Nathan:

Welcome to Pop and Play, the podcast all about play, play in its frivolous, serious, joyful, and powerful forms. And this award-winning podcast... Yes, we have won so many... Well, at least one award, is hosted by myself, Nathan Holbert.

Haeny:

And me, Haeny Yoon. We're two education researchers that think play matters. Each week we chat with other scholars, artists, activists, parents and children about the significance and value of play in their lives.

Nathan:

Yeah. And this season we've been exploring what it means to play roles, to play roles in games, in craft, in theater. What's role playing about? What compels us to try out new identities?

Haeny:

And since we had such a great time last season with our fashion episode...

Nathan:

I know I did.

Haeny:

Yes, you did. This week, we're playing with clothes again. And side note, I did buy cargo shorts.

Nathan:

Yes!

Haeny:

Specifically we'll be talking to Alexis and Josh, two longtime cosplayers about how they engage with media by designing, constructing, and wearing costumes of their favorite characters. Did I say... It's cosplaying, right?

Nathan:

Yeah, cosplay.

Haeny:

Okay. Cosplay.

Nathan:

Like costume play.

Haeny:

Is it cause play or cosplay?

Nathan:

I mean, this is probably just my Midwestern accent getting the better of me. I think it's cosplay.

Haeny:

Okay. Cosplay. Cosplay.

Nathan:

Cosplay. Yeah.

Haeny:

So since we're on that topic, you want to talk about costumes in your life?

Nathan:

What a brilliant segue. I wouldn't say that I'm a Halloween fanatic. There are people that you find that are really into Halloween, and I'm kind of ambivalent to it, but I do have two young kids who get very excited about Halloween.

Haeny:

As young kids should.

Nathan:

As they should. As it is their right. And I like to support that particular love of Halloween, if only because it means they get more candy and I get to steal that candy when they're not looking. So anyway, my kids are into it, so I like to help them or work with them to make costumes.

I kind of have this weird... Let's be honest, it's kind of a dumb thing where I'm like, "Oh, we should make the costume. We shouldn't just be buying a new costume every year." Because you wear it once and then it goes in a box that you never retrieve. So I like to make costumes for the kids. Some years that's more successful than other years. Other years it's like, "Oh crap, Halloween's in three days. What can we get shipped overnight from Amazon?"

Haeny:

I've seen your costumes. I feel like it is definitely not shipped from Amazon overnight sort of situation.

Nathan:

There have been years. There have been years. Yeah. Yeah. How about you? What's your relationship to costumes?

Haeny:

Well, I like to overnight ship from Amazon. I do not consider myself a maker or designer of costumes, although I really like clothes, so I don't know how it doesn't translate into costume making or putting together outfits for some kind of identity. I always have these high hopes that I would do it, and then when it comes to the execution, it is fatally flawed.

Nathan:

Is the fatal flaw just you don't care enough? Not enough time?

Haeny:

I don't have time. Yeah. I have high hopes. I like to think I'm an ambitious person, but deep down, I'm just lazy. That's why.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Haeny:

So what is a memorable costume that you feel like you've made?

Nathan:

One that comes to mind is the Bob's Burgers family. So my kids really love Bob's Burgers, a cartoon.

Haeny:

Oh, your kids like it too?

Nathan:

Oh, they're obsessed with it. My daughter was Louise, who is the character that wears kind of the bunny ear hat all the time, and my son was played Jean. And Jean's normal dress is kind of simple, but there's a few episodes where Jean wears a burger costume.

Haeny:

Classy.

Nathan:

Yeah. Super simple costume, but it worked great. The combination of all four of us together, it looks pretty absurd and really fun.

Haeny:

Yeah, I mean, I love that. I think that is why I can never execute the vision, because you say it's simple, but it's a very intentional, meticulous thing that you're thinking about. Like, "Okay, I'm going to wear this white and then I'm take a sharpie, I'm going to draw this pocket." And it all fits together. It's like an aesthetic that you're trying to build. It doesn't have to be complicated, but it's an aesthetic. And for me, it's about envisioning the aesthetic. That must be my obstacle.

Nathan:

I mean, it's true, though. You're right. Sometimes it's just the little things. I mean, I will say, the burger, my wife made the burger for my son, and that was actually pretty complicated. But even with a simple costume like the Bob costume, it is all about those details, and seeing them ahead of time. So tell me about your costumes.

Haeny:

Okay, so I feel like I've only had one great costume of all time in my entire life on this Earth.

Nathan:

You're still riding that high?

Haeny:

Yes. So many, many years ago, some friends and I always got together to watch Project Runway. And if you don't know what Project Runway is, it is that fashion show with, at the time, Tim Gunn and Heidi Klum. They were the hosts.

Nathan:

Wait, it's not Tim Gunn and Heidi Klum now?

Haeny:

No. Tim Gunn had a major fallout with the Project Runway people, FYI.

Nathan:

Oh, no.

Haeny:

Yes.

Nathan:

I always liked Tim Gunn.

Haeny:

So they're not in that anymore. I don't even know if Project Runway is still on, but it was like the first season. No, no, it was not the first season. I take that back. It was one of the early seasons, and the winner of Project Runway was this kid named Mondo, who was amazing. So my friends and I decided that at our finale episode that we would all dress up as one of the characters. So I was Mondo, my friend Mara was Mondo's model.

Nathan:

So you had the whole cast.

Haeny:

Yeah. We came as cast members. And I had an awesome costume because I had this modern, checkered, but with strong lines, a skirt and a top that had stripes going horizontally, but the skirt had square patterns in it, because that's his thing. He mixes patterns together.

Nathan:

Mixes. Yeah.

Haeny:

And it was so great. And then, when I moved to New York, the first celebrity I ever saw was Mondo.

Nathan:

What?

Haeny:

Okay. And I hand his boyfriend my phone. I was like, "Can you take a picture of us?"

Nathan:

Yes.

Haeny:

And so I actually have a picture of me and Mondo, the first celebrity that I saw.

Nathan:

That is fantastic.

Haeny:

I'd be like, greatest costume of all time, the GOAT. And then I actually met him on the subway.

Nathan:

Great. That's a great sighting. That's a great story. Wow. I want to see this costume.

Haeny:

I'll put it up on the site.

Nathan:

We'll put it on the site. I do want to correct some things.

Haeny:

Oh God. Okay.

Nathan:

First of all, Mondo was season eight of Project Runway.

Haeny:

Oh. I thought it was early.

Nathan:

Yeah, no.

Haeny:

Okay.

Nathan:

He's not.

Haeny:

Did you see a picture of him?

Nathan:

I did. And also he was also the winner of the first Project Runway All-Stars.

Haeny:

Oh, maybe that's what it was.

Nathan:

That's what you're thinking of.

Haeny:

Yes. Okay. So why are we telling these stories of costumes, Nathan?

Nathan:

Because that's what we do. That's what the people come for. Our absurd stories of fashion.

Haeny:

Okay. No, they do not.

Nathan:

Okay. Yeah, that's probably true.

Haeny:

Well, I think we're talking about costumes because we're talking about cosplay. And I don't want to say that they're synonyms. Right? So what do you think is the difference between wearing costumes on Halloween or because you're having a Project Runway finale versus cosplaying?

Nathan:

Oh my God. Once again, you ask an incisive question that I'm going to stumble through because I don't really think I know an answer. I mean, to me, I think it's pretty similar. I think people who probably get really deep in this practice and this community of cosplay, which I think is probably a part of what makes it different, is you have a whole community of people and you have these events that you come together to celebrate.

One thing that I think is important to identify here is that cosplay, in most cases, you're identifying an existing thing, a character, or an idea, or something that's out there already in the ether, and you are trying to create your version of it, or sometimes a version of it that's exactly like the real version. I think this is a little different than fashion in the sense where fashion you're trying to do something yourself, or try to embody some aesthetic, or play with your identity, something we talked lot about in our fashion episode. Whereas here, you're trying to take on a character. You're trying to take on this persona or this idea and enact it in a costume, and then also in the way in which you wear it. That's my thinking about that. I don't know, does that sound plausible?

Haeny:

I do think you're right. I think it has a lot to do with community and has a lot to do with... It's not necessarily like you're creating a new aesthetic, but that aesthetic is also connecting you to other people who enjoy that aesthetic.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Haeny:

Right? Which I think is... I go back to our fashion episode with Yolanda and Olivia and they said that same thing.

Nathan:

That's a good point.

Haeny:

It's like you're in different regions, like in the Bronx, or Brooklyn, or the Upper West Side, or the Upper East Side, or whatever it is, and there's a fashion aesthetic, and you participate in it by joining that aesthetic. And maybe there's variations of it, which I could see.

Nathan:

That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah.

Haeny:

The cosplay, right? There could be variations of Bob's Burgers characters.

Nathan:

When you go to a... I've been to many comic conventions. Not many, but I've been to the New York one a lot. And it's not like the person dressed as the Wolverine runs into another person dressed as the Wolverine, and they're like, "Mine's better than yours." It's more like, "Oh, cool, I see how you did this, and I did it this way." And they have this great conversation about the different ways they approached it or fabricated the pieces. So I think you're right about that. That's a really good point.

Haeny:

So it's an interpretive sort of thing, and there's versions of it and variations

Nathan:

And even... I don't know, maybe we'll get into this again with our guests, but even the sort of weak attempts at making a costume, those are really celebrated in these spaces usually, too, like when my kids go and they're dressed up as something. We went not too long ago, and my daughter was literally just wearing a particular Pokemon hoodie, and some kid who had really dressed up like Ash, the Pokemon trainer, is like, "Oh, can I take a picture with you?" He was into it.

Haeny:

That's awesome.

Nathan:

So even the sort of low hanging fruit attempts still can be celebrated in these spaces where people really go to great lengths to do something amazing, which is, I think, kind of cool.

Haeny:

Yeah. Make sure your daughter doesn't know that you just called her costume lame in comparison to somebody else.

Nathan:

I cannot let them listen to this episode. They'll find out that I've been stealing their candy. They'll find out that I was giving her a tough time just for hoodie.

Haeny:

Exactly. Bad-mouthing them all over the place. So instead of trying to guess how to say cosplay.

Nathan:

How to say cosplay?

Haeny:

Uh huh. Or trying to determine what we think it is, we have two special guests that can kind of unpack that for us.

Nathan:

Yeah, let's introduce our guests.

Haeny:

Great.

Our first guest is Alexis, and Alexis is a geriatrics researcher at UCLA, which I think is kind of a really cool field because I think what you said you're really interested in is the intergenerational connections and the relationships between young and old, and why we even have these distinctions, and what this kind of means for aging and just how we progress through life. So I think that is very cool. We might have some more questions about that.

Nathan:

We had a whole season about intergenerational play actually, so it's good.

Haeny:

Yes. So I think she fits in great with our crew here who also likes to do nerdy things at an age that maybe we're supposed to not be doing them anymore, and we fully condone those things.

Nathan:

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm very cool.

Haeny:

Okay. Yes. Jury's still out on that. And then she's a lifelong crafter.

Nathan:

Nice.

Haeny:

And so I am excited to see some of the things that she crafts and gets into, and then we could talk about that. Our next guest is Josh, who's an AV technician for a cultural center in LA. They're both in LA. And he said he's been crafting since 2016, but also has been involved in fantasy play, which has been an ongoing thing in our season. I feel like all our guests are involved in some kind of fantasy play, role playing, Dunce and Dragons, all of those things. So...

Nathan:

Did you say Dunce and Dragons?

Haeny:

Dungeons and Dragons. Okay?

Nathan:

We are very excited to have you both with us today to talk about your experiences with cosplay.

Josh:

Thank you so much.

Alexis:

Thank you. We're excited too.

Nathan:

Before we dive into it, we have a load of questions that we probably won't get to, but we have a load of questions we'd love to talk with you about. But before we get into that, we always like to start with a game just to get us in the right mood for conversation. And so we've created a game for you all that is going to ask you... We're going to pitch to you a few scenarios and we're going to ask you to tell us about how you would manage those scenarios, how you would deal with the particular challenges at these scenarios I would propose for you. Okay?

Some of these are easy, some of them may be a little bit tougher. So we'll start with an easier one. Britney Spears just called and wants you to design a costume for her book launch, but she wants you to dress her up as a character, some literary character for this book launch. Who would you dress Britney up for for this book launch?

Josh:

I don't know if you saw these on Twitter. Her kids are obsessed with anime.

Haeny:

They are?

Josh:

She actually made a Frieza costume from Dragon Ball Z for one of her kids a few years ago.

Haeny:

What?

Josh:

It was actually really cool. So maybe Bulma from Dragon Ball Z. I think that would do well for her kind of rich celebrity status kind of thing.

Alexis:

I was going to say Clueless since it's based on Emma.

Josh:

That would work too.

Haeny:

That's a good one too.

Nathan:

That's good. Yeah.

Haeny:

Yes. Two very different directions, but two equally good rationale for dressing her up.

Nathan:

Yeah. So a follow-up question to that one. What do you think would make the costume in this case? What's the key to that Clueless costume or that Frieza costume? Is it the right wig? Is it a cool cape? Maybe it's trinkets, little doodads that are important kind of details. What would make this costume for Britney?

Alexis:

Well, for me... I mean clearly she doesn't need the blonde hair anymore, but it would be like that iconic yellow plaid short skirt suit from the beginning of the film. And since early Y2K, late nineties, it's very in fashion right now. That's not hard to go vintage shopping and find really cool pieces just to put that together. So just trying to make sure you find that right color yellow. And it can be a different pattern, but as long as you have the blazer, and the short skirt, and the color, I think that would pull off really well.

Josh:

For Bulma, it would probably be the wig because that iconic blue hair of Bulma from Dragon Ball Z is kind of like her staple. And there's a couple different styles. There's a really cool perm look from middle of the season I think she could pull off really well. And that outfit has a lot of really cool layers that go along with it. But I think that's probably the way I'd go for that, because she could pull off more elaborate stuff, as we all know.

Nathan:

But if she had the right wig, it would get there. Yeah.

Haeny:

Can I diverge for one second?

Nathan:

Please.

Haeny:

And you could continue with your game.

Nathan:

Yeah.

Haeny:

So when you're looking for these pieces, because I need some inspiration. I want to aspire to be a cosplayer, but I can't because I don't have the motivation, or I'm lazy and I don't have the resources. So do you go vintage shopping a lot? Where do you get some of these things?

Josh:

So for our bigger pieces, I make almost every piece of it. I mean, there's some things like, so...

Haeny:

So I have to go to Josh's house.

Josh:

We'll get into -

Alexis:

You have to learn to sew.

Josh:

We'll go into it later. So under shirts and things we buy, but main pieces. But I have one from my second year of costume that literally it was an H&M trip that I found a nice little jacket that I could modify, and a shirt that I could modify, and that's a lot of things. I inherited a lot of older... You could do a vintage shopping, you could do it at Ren Faires, but leather goods and pouches and things are great for cosplay.

Alexis:

Yeah. A lot of my cosplays, I've bought stuff like the corset and bodices from Ren Faire. Etsy is a great place because you find these makers who will create really hyper specific pieces that you need. I have elf ears that I wear, vampire teeth, stuff like that that I've bought off of Etsy. You have those makers that have the silicone molds and stuff. For Amazon, if you still want...

Haeny:

I already do that. Amazing.

Josh:

There's a number of people who just will make costumes, and there's no shame in the community for buying Costumes and wearing costumes that you can just find a great maker who will make you an entire setup. One of the friends I've made in the last couple of years, they have a really elaborate costume from a Dungeons and Dragons podcast we love, and he bought the entire thing from a group and only does the makeup himself.

Nathan:

Oh, cool. I was actually wondering that. I mean, I was curious about how the communities that you guys have inhabited, how they feel about the different ways in which costumes get made. I mean, I was saying to Haeny earlier, I've been to Comic Cons and things like that occasionally, and my sense is that you'll see some insanely cool and elaborate costumes, and then you'll also see these kind of low effort attempts, but people still really enjoy that, and they'll value that, and they'll be like, "Oh, there's a bunch of Spider-Mens all together and there's the ones that went crazy and did the most amazing things, and there's the one that bought a suit that my kid bought off of Amazon." And they all go take a photo together and they have a great time. So I don't know, how do you guys encounter that?

Alexis:

I mean, obviously, you have some of the people who love to gatekeep, and you can only be a cosplayer if you make everything yourself from scratch, but I think in general, the community is pretty welcoming of anyone who wants to be a part of this. It definitely doesn't matter because, as long as you have a semblance of the look together, someone is going to celebrate it.

Nathan:

Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. Well, maybe we can zoom out a little bit and roll back time here and have you tell us a little bit about how you got into cosplay to begin with. Was there a con that you went to, or was there a show, and then you heard about it? How did this all get started with you?

Alexis:

Yeah, so we started cosplaying because of conventions. We really only go to one convention per year. That's Fanime Con, so it's a fans of anime convention.

Nathan:

Right.

Alexis:

So Josh started going in...

Josh:

2013 was my first year I went.

Alexis:

2015 was my first year.

Josh:

And even that year, Lexi decided to do a quick closet cosplay Harley Quinn for one of our days there.

Nathan:

Nice.

Alexis:

It wasn't good, but...

Josh:

But we graduated college that year and went back home, and I was in the Boy Scouts for years, and my aunt who lived down the block from us literally sewed on every single patch I ever wore on that Boy Scout uniform. And also, when I was in middle school, got her addicted to anime. So this is a... She's now 67 years old, so she's about 30 years older than us, or almost 30 years older than us.

And I go, "Hey, would you mind helping make..." Because I know she can sew. She sews doll clothes. I'm like, "Can you make us these jackets from a anime called Ouran High School Host Club." Which both her, I, and Lexi really liked. And we ended up making four jackets together. And then 2016 was when we first started doing, essentially, cosplay. I bought wigs. We did a joke where two of our friends got kind of the reject coats that we weren't entirely happy with, but looked good enough. And so four of us went that year as four members of the cast of the show Ouran High School Host Club, and then we've slowly been ramping up our skills from there.

Haeny:

Is that how you learned how to sew, Josh, from your aunt?

Josh:

It is. So in 2017, Lexi bought me a sewing machine for her anniversary. And I went later to my aunt. I'm like, "Hey, can you teach me how to sew?" And she's like, "Well, I mean, yeah, it's pretty straightforward." But she taught me, and that first thing I ever made was two of the pieces for Lexi's Critical Role cosplay that we debuted in 20...

Alexis:

18?

Josh:

18.

Haeny:

Wow. But what are the pieces?

Josh:

19? It was a blouse and a skirt, and then she bought a corset and a -

Alexis:

Well, I had that custom made through an et Etsy seller, and then I crocheted my cape and hand warmers and did all the makeup because it requires me painting myself blue, and...

Josh:

It would have to have been 19 because the next year was canceled.

Alexis:

Yeah.

Nathan:

Naturally.

Haeny:

Wow. That's very impressive, honestly. So you learned how to sew, your aunt taught you how to sew, and you made a blouse and a skirt as the first things.

Josh:

Yep.

Haeny:

Wow.

Alexis:

It was a lot of trial and error.

Nathan:

Yeah. I was also impressed with that too, and I thought that was really kind of cool to hear that story. You essentially, it sounds like, learned to sew because you wanted to make this costume. I'm curious, did you guys both get into cosplay at the same time, together? Did one of you kind of do it, perhaps, before you started cosplaying together?

Josh:

I mean, Lexi has a history of dressing up at costumes far, far, far longer.

Alexis:

Yeah, so growing up, my mom used to make her Halloween costumes and she's a very, very talented seamstress. So when we were kids, we used to travel a lot. So when we went to Europe, at the end of the trip, my mom would ask us, "What queen do you want to be this year?"

Haeny:

Oh my God.

Alexis:

For Halloween. And we would choose a queen or another historical figure, and we had to do all the research. We had to research the era, the clothes, the hairstyles, all of that. My mom would go to costume museums and sketch out the clothing to figure out the construction, and then she would reproduce that for us for Halloween.

Nathan:

Wow. Wow. It's kind of making my costume work for my kids -

Nathan:

- A little embarrassing.

Alexis:

I mean, obviously, she's also doing this for children, so we're not getting the full spectrum of accuracy here.

Josh:

But she also did it out of actual raw silk and embroidery.

Alexis:

Yeah. It was always really high quality material.

Josh:

Material. These are, quote, "Saved for our future children."

Nathan:

Wow.

Alexis:

They are saved for our future children. So, I mean, I grew up wearing that stuff.

Nathan:

So cool.

Haeny:

Can I say I really love that, though.

Nathan:

I do, too.

Haeny:

Because I feel like... Your mom sounds very cool, first of all, but I think that's the essence of play and learning. You're playing, trying on different things. Your mom is intentionally creating this space for you where you're like, "Look, we learned about all these queens. We went through Europe. Now I want you to think about which one you want to be." And then you kind of research and think about these things together, and it's so much fun, and so delightful, and creative, and imaginative and really hard work, if you think about it.

Nathan:

Yeah. Sounds exhausting.

Haeny:

So it's all of those things rolled into one.

Alexis:

It would be one to two months of her making these costumes.

Haeny:

I bet.

Alexis:

And getting my dad involved to make certain parts of it.

Haeny:

Yeah.

Alexis:

We'd do a whole photo shoot, little photo shoot at the end.

Nathan:

Oh, that's great.

Alexis:

Halloween. So I was already doing cosplay, basically, and cosplay photo shoot.

Haeny:

Yeah. You mentioned, Alexis, that you know how to crochet and do all of those things.

Alexis:

And knitting.

Haeny:

So I'm assuming... Did the crafting, and the crocheting, and all of those skills come from the time that you probably spent with your mother? Did that influence you having some of these skills, or did you pick it up along the way?

Alexis:

So crochet, my grandmother actually taught me how to crochet when I was about five or six years old, and I had done it for a little while, and then I dropped it. And I actually picked it up again when she passed away in 2016 because it was just a good way to stay connected to her. I never learned how to sew.

Josh:

Nope. Hand sew.

Alexis:

I learned how to hand sew. I can hand sew, but I can't use a sewing machine, so I didn't really get that from my mom at all.

Nathan:

Josh can teach you.

Josh:

I can do most -

Alexis:

He's tried.

Josh:

I've tried.

Alexis:

I don't know. I didn't get the sewing so much from my mom, but yeah, my grandmother taught me how to crochet, I taught myself how to embroider later on, and now I just live with a perpetual yarn stash.

Nathan:

I love that.

Haeny:

That we see in the background.

Nathan:

I love that.

Haeny:

There's a whole craft station in the back.

Nathan:

Yeah. I'm curious about kind of a bigger question around cosplay here. Part of the reason I sometimes make costumes, as I said before, is I have young kids and it kind of gives me an excuse to do that. But also at the same time, I'll make a costume for my kids, but I don't always make one for myself, and part of that is because I don't necessarily feel really comfortable running around at a costume.

And so I think cosplay feels scary to me and I'm curious how you all feel about it. It feels like there's a component to this which is like you've put all this work into this thing, and you're going to go out there, and not only are you going to put this thing that you made out there, you're going to put it on and you're going to try to embody the character. How do you feel about that? Is it scary for you all? Is it just part of the play? How do you manage that?

Josh:

Yeah. For me, cosplay isn't necessarily scary just because I... And she'll get into the other half of this, but for me at least, because I'm in a community of... I only do my costumes really in a group where it is socially acceptable. If I was doing it in more of a generalized area... I don't even really doing the holiday parties at work and things. But when you're embodying a thing in a place like Ren Faire or cosplay, as long as you're in the area where like, "Oh yeah, this is safe. Everyone -"

Nathan:

Is a safe space. Yeah.

Josh:

Space to do it. All that, mind you, it is coming from a masc presenting...

Alexis:

Person.

Josh:

... Person as opposed to a lot of femme cosplayers who deal with a whole host of other issues with cosplay, which is what I think Lexi's going to talk about in a second here.

Alexis:

Yeah. So I mean, for me, I've never had an issue dressing up in any situation. A lot of times when I go out, I'm wearing vintage clothing from the fifties and sixties, so that tends to grab people's attention anyways. Even dressing up outside of cons isn't a problem for me. For me, it's a performance, and you get compliments on it, and people want to tell you what an amazing job you did, or you get to make someone's day who's really excited to see your character.

But the other part of that is it can be scary sometimes, especially if you're a woman or a femme in cosplay, because safety takes kind of front seat. There's a saying in the cosplay community, "Cosplay is not consent." You shouldn't go up to someone and start harassing them because of what they're wearing, because you think they're the character. But there are people who don't get that and they do it anyways. That's kind of across the spectrum. It doesn't matter what your costume is. You could be wearing the most revealing thing or the most buttoned up, covered up thing. That's the less fun part of doing the performance and putting yourself out there.

But I think cons are getting a lot better about clocking those people and making sure that they're not harassing the other cosplayers, because that wasn't so much the case when we first started going to cons.

Haeny:

I mean, I think you're saying such an important thing about what we've been exploring all three seasons that we've been doing this, right? Is just the complicated nature of just playing with something, right? Whether it's playing with costumes, playing with your identity, playing with different forms, or playing... In any case, whether you're a child or whether you're an adult, right? There is obviously so much joy and imagination,, and creativity in play, playful acts that happen in these spaces where we feel safe, where we feel like we can take risks.

But even within those spaces... A lot of my research is with young children too. In a lot of those spaces, there's also points of tension, and difficulty, and people hurting each other, whether it's physically, emotionally, intellectually, whatever it is. And there's exclusion, inclusion, there's so many complicated things that happen around play, and that's part of the risk, too. So I think thinking that all of these faces of play is the answer, "Just play more." Right? It's complicated, right? Because there is that, and there is something that brings us a lot of joy being in these spaces, and we have to do it for our own well-being, right? But even in that process, there's also things that are difficult and tensions that we have to also navigate. And sometimes, as you said, Lexi, some of those tensions are really... It's harmful and difficult.

Alexis:

And I mean, I will say the good always outweighs the bad. I've had infinitely more wonderful, amazing interactions with people than I have had bad interactions, and that makes it worth it. Especially when you have a bad experience that kind of ruins it for you for a little bit, until you have someone come up to you and tell you how much they love what you're wearing.

Haeny:

Yeah. And that's exactly the same kind of navigation and negotiations that kids have to make, too, when they're in spaces of play. "Okay, I had a really bad time at this point, but am I going to put myself out there again?" And sometimes I think the joy of it also outweighs some of the difficult, bad experiences that they have. And part of it's just ongoing facilitation, just like you talked about how at some of these conferences, you have to change the rules, you have to change the boundaries, you've got to create different norms, and that's all part of it, too.

Nathan:

Yeah. I want to ask you, maybe as a way to move us towards the end of our conversation, if there's a costume that you've kind of always wanted to create or make, if you had the time and the skills. What would be the dream costume at this point?

Haeny:

Well, we know they have the skills.

Nathan:

They got the skillz. Skillz with a Z.

Haeny:

Skillz with a Z. Yes.

Josh:

We currently have a couples cosplay. So there is, and I want to make sure I get this word right. Gijinka. So it's essentially an anthropomorphization. So from the Pokemon series, which there's a huge fan art our community that make essentially human...

Alexis:

Human versions.

Josh:

... Human versions of various Pokemon.

Haeny:

Oh my God, your daughter would love this, Nathan.

Nathan:

Yeah, they would.

Josh:

And we currently have what we're calling our Penny Dreadful ghost costumes. So I've made her a ladies outfit styled after the Pokemon Gengar, and I've made myself a butler cosplay modeled after the Pokemon Chandelure. And we'd love to get this as a whole group cosplay.

Haeny:

So basically it's taking a Pokemon character, and those characters that are usually just fantasy -

Nathan:

Little critters.

Haeny:

- Little critters, and kind of reinterpreting them into a Victorian human character.

Josh:

Yes.

Nathan:

I love that. Did you say there was a name for this type of practice where you take the Pokemon and become sort of humanoid versions?

Josh:

Yeah.

Alexis:

Gijinka.

Josh:

Gijinka. G-I-J-I-N-K-A.

Nathan:

That's super cool. I'll have to look that up. That sounds really fun. My son would -

Josh:

Was also called Moe Anthropomorphization, according to Google.

Nathan:

Okay. I made a Decidueye costume for my son once, and it was very last minute and messy.

Josh:

Decidueye is who is going to be our cowboy in our group.

Nathan:

I love that. So thank you very much for sharing with us this hobby, this passion that you all have, and for talking to us about not just how you go about making these costumes, but how it feels to make these costumes, how it feels to be in a space that's both welcoming and then also, sometimes, potentially scary, and also talking about your history with this. This has been super informative and interesting.

Haeny:

Yeah, very much so. Yeah. And I think I walk away with an appreciation of how much work it takes. And it's such an interpretive act. We were thinking, "Is making costumes just trying to imitate something that you see on the screen?" And it's nothing like that, right? It's interpretation, it's thinking about how you're going to appropriate some of these ideas, how you're going to make it your own and your own twist on it. So I think that is very cool. And it can't wait to see the group Pokemon costume cosplay.

Nathan:

So before we let you go, we do like to do one last segment on our Pop and Play episodes, and that is to find out what you are into, what kind of stuff you're engaging with, whether these are movies, or books, or games, or costumes or animes. What's popping for you?

Josh:

I occasionally watch anime. Audio books are really good.

Haeny:

Is there a recent one that you're really into?

Josh:

I have, unfortunately, been sucked into the Fourth Wing Iron Flame series that has been incredibly popular on BookTok, which is a fantasy romance, which is not usually my jam. But these are really good books I found.

Nathan:

Nice.

Josh:

And then Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere series is always a good choice.

Haeny:

Great.

Nathan:

Yeah, I've read some of those. Those are good.

Haeny:

And you, Lexi?

Alexis:

I read a lot. There's not... Well, I mean, I just finished Star Trek Lower Decks, the new season, so that was a lot of fun.

Josh:

Yeah, Lexi's a huge Trekkie.

Alexis:

I'm a big Trekkie. So I just finished that. I read a lot.

Josh:

Great British Bake-Off is one of the things we watch together consistently.

Alexis:

Yes. I'm also a big baker, so love that.

Haeny:

Oh, that's cool.

Alexis:

But yeah, that. I'm hoping in the next few months... I can only DM for Dungeons and Dragons campaigns. I hate being a player.

Haeny:

So DM like Dungeon Master? Is that...

Nathan:

Yeah, DM.

Alexis:

Yeah, Dungeon Master. So I'm hoping to start kind of a more low-key campaign called Dungeons and Doggies, so everyone plays as a different dog character.

Haeny:

Oh, that's so great. I love it.

Alexis:

I kind want to do that.

Haeny:

Very cool. I definitely approve of Dungeons and Doggies.

Nathan:

I'm into that. I'm into that.

Haeny:

Yes.

Nathan:

Awesome. Well, thanks again for taking the time to talk with us today. It's been an absolute delight.

Haeny:

Yeah, thank you.

Alexis:

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Haeny:

Pop and Play is produced by Haeny Yoon, Nathan Holbert, Lalitha Vasudevan, Billy Collins and Joe Riina-Ferrie at Teachers' College Columbia University with the Digital Futures Institute. This episode was edited by Billy Collins and Adrian Vitullo.

Nathan:

For a transcript and to learn more, visit tc.edu/pop-and-play. Our music is selections from Leaf Eaters by Pottington Bear, used here under a creative commons attribution non-commercial license. Blake Danzig provided our social media and outreach support follow at Pop and Play Pod on Instagram and TikTok for more of what's popping, like the Trashies with Ioana Literat. Thank you to Meier Clark and Abu Abdelbagi for support with our website and additional materials, and thanks to you for listening.