Episode 4: Sewing is NOT a "girl sport" with Yasmin Kafai

• Find out more about constructionism in Yasmin, Nathan, and Matthew Berland's book Designing Constructionist Futures
• If you are interested in how Yasmin addressed the artificial academic boundaries on playing and making check out Connected Gaming  
• Interested in Whypox? Yasmin's coauthored papers from 2007 and 2010
• Read more about Yamin's research on the virtual communities of Whyville Connected Play: Tweens in a Virtual World
• New to Scratch? Check out the community-based programming platform. 
• You can learn how to make your own Turn Signal Jacket like Leah Buechley
• Here is more info on Yasmin coauthored research on biomarkerlabs Growing Designs with biomakerlab in High School Classrooms
• Want to check out the Viking game Nathan is playing Valheim
• Interested in hearing more about Among Us check out this article Everyone is Playing Among Us
• Check out Koreangry on Instagram @koreangry or read the bio for yourself at koreangry.com/

Nathan: This week we talk with Yasmin Kafai from the University of Pennsylvania. Yasmin is a pioneer of constructionist design. Constructionism is all about putting powerful creation tools into the hands of learners and inviting them to build and share objects and artifacts that have personal and communal value. The idea is that these construction environments externalize our thoughts into tools and representations so that then, communities of learners can see that thinking, they can tinker with it, debug it, and use it to build new things.

Haeny: Yasmin is the co-creator of one of the world’s most popular constructionist environments, Scratch. Scratch is a programming tool and online community where children write code to create games and interactive stories, share these programs, and learn from each others’ projects all around the world. Reflecting on how kids create and share artifacts in Scratch, as well as in virtual worlds such as Whyville, Yasmin highlights the importance of meeting children where they’re at, of embracing kids’ culture and values in the design of learning environments.

Nathan: Finally, Yasmin talks about the implications of moving “code” from digital spaces such as Scratch, to the physical world of textiles and materials.

[music fades up and then fades out under Nathan’s voice.]

Nathan: I am very excited to have you here today with us Yasmin Kafai, Professor of Learning Sciences at the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education. Yasmin is a pioneer of learning with creative technology. Importantly, she's one of the co-designers of the Scratch programming language. She's also the author and editor of many, many books on play, games, coding, making, including my co-editor for the Designing Constructionist Futures book. So that's fun. And we're just thrilled to have you here to talk with us today about, about your work and about play, you know, broadly speaking, so Yasmin.

Yasmin: Yes. Thank you for having me on your podcast, I think this is my first one. So I'm excited to explore this medium. And I think you accurately summarized it--I work on all the fun stuff, connected to learning. [Nathan laughs] Everybody else can do the serious stuff. But I have always been interested in games, in textiles when we were still kind of married to our computer screens, and more recently even moved into biology exploring the liquid medium. And I think these are open frontiers. And I think they also teach us important things about what is really different what we need to pay attention to.

Nathan: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And that's, that's why we're excited to have you here to talk about all of that today, not only the toys, but also those new frontiers. I will say, I am excited to hear that this is your first podcast; I was a little worried that maybe Bruce and Barack got to you first. [Yasmin and Haeny laugh] So, happy to hear that it was us that we beat them to the punch. So we’ll. We like to start out on pop and play with a bit of a game. And when we were trying to think of a game that you might enjoy playing with us, I thought it would be fun to look at different toys that are made for kids. As you know, toys are often made and advertised in very gendered ways. And so we thought we'd play a game of is it real or is it fake? I'm going to give you a list of toys and des- and their descriptions. And you're going to have to tell us which one is either real or fake depending upon the question I'm gonna ask you.

Yasmin: Okay.

Nathan: Now I'm going to ask you which one is fake. So I'm going to give you three and two of them are going to be real, so you need to identify the fake one. Are you ready?

Yasmin: Yes.

Nathan: Okay, here we go. The CAT Dump Truck. Tackle any job with the CAT Construction Fleet of vehicle toys. These 10 inch push powered CAT construction toy trucks are ideal for toddlers. Be in the middle of the action by moving and posing the articulated vehicle buckets just like the real thing. These outside, outside toys are ideal toys for three year old boys. Collect them all. [haeny laughs] That's the CAT Dump Truck. Or the Rainbow Mini-purse. The Rainbow Mini-purse will brighten up every day. It's colorful, trendy, and would be the perfect item to liven up any outfit. [Haeny laughs] Along with creating a purse, this kit will allow you to create a matching bracelet that will complete your stylish look. You can also make staples, like a colorful pencil holder or a floral collectible to make your room look your own. That's the Rainbow Mini-purse. [Haeny laughs] Or is this the Bravo Kids LCD writing tablet for girls. The LCD writing tablet adopts 2019 LCD pressure sensitive technology and has a colorful screen for easy viewing. Use the included stylus for her to write secret notes to your friends, put hearts over all your "i's" and practice changing your last name. Which one of those is fake?

Yasmin: Um, it's not the Rainbow Purse, because I can't - I think you can make that. I'm debating between the first one the the CAT power truck and the last one the Bravo LCD pressure stylus and I guess the last one is fake.

Nathan: Wow, [Haeny laughs] you are you're so good at spotting these fakes. [Yasmin laughs] Amazing work. Amazing work

Haeny: Well, I mean, after you wrote practice changing your last name. [all laugh] I may have, I may have pushed a little too hard on that one.

Yasmin: [Haeny and Nathan laugh] But they were good. They were good because there were all these gendered computers in the 1990s, literally the blue and the pink one. They were the same technology just with different software applications. I mean, and the, the advertisements were everywhere. So--

Nathan: Right, right. And all of these I might add are based on real toys and I usually only had to change a few words if it was a fake one. It wasn't, it wasn't a massive overhaul here. Unfortunately. Okay we’re-

Haeny: I mean, Joe said you went too far when you put stylus for her. [Yasmin and Nathan laugh]  I mean, what does that even mean?

Nathan: It reminded me I'm sure you've seen there was, it was like a BIC pens for her. There was a whole like thing about that it's all about pens for her [Haeny laughs].

Yasmin: Yeah.

Nathan: Depressing. Okay, so in this group can you tell me which one is fake? Which one is fake? The Dinosaur Pullback truck, cool looking dinosaur monster truck toy for toddler boys. Bright blue dinosaur body is tightly screwed into the wheels. What's more interesting is that when the tail is down the mouth is open! [Haeny laughs] 100% safe for toddlers. Or is it the DIY Warrior Slime Kit. Everything you could ever need to make slime for your budding warrior. Why give the gift of regular boring toys when you can have 18 metal-colored slime for doing battle against the forces of evil. Our slime kit helps unleash your little Viking's creativity, helps him develop his motor skills, and builds forearm tone. [Haeny laughs]. Or the Lightup Unicorn Pillow. This DIY activity is the perfect gift for the girl that wants to learn about STEM while sewing a beautiful lightup pillow. This project inspires creativity as you get to customize the look and feel of your unicorn. And don't forget to name her. You will learn how LED lights change color and why they're eco friendly while uncovering what makes a real circuit work.

Yasmin: Oh, this is hard. I think the slime, that exists. I mean, the it's between the unicorn and to dinosaur truck. But I think dinosaurs and trucks go really well together. So I think it's a unicorn pillow. Which is fake.

Nathan: You think the unicorn pillow is fake?

Yasmin: Yeah.

Nathan: That is real. That is a real toy

Yasmin: Oh my God, [Haeny laughs]. I got my first wrong one.

Nathan: [laughing] Oh, man, pretty good. No, the, the the warrior slime was actually fake.

Yasmin: Okay,

Nathan: so that [indistinct]

Haeny: But I have to say I love the logic of how you're constructing your answers. Because more than the advertisement, you're thinking of like, well? is that made? Is that an invented thing that's out there. Here are some variations of that. And this could work, which, you know, toy marketers beware.

Nathan: [laughing] Bewa- yeah, hopefully we're not giving any ideas.

Yasmin: [laughs]

Nathan: That's one thing I am a little worried about here.

Haeny: Seriously.

Nathan: [laughs] Great. Well, you are our champion. Congratulations. Yasmin, you, you crushed that game. I don't know if you should be proud or horrified.

Yasmin: [laughs]

Nathan: [laughs] But, but, excellent work.

Haeny: [laughs] Well, thanks for engaging with that with us.

Yasmin: Yeah.

Nathan: You know, one of the things that I find so delightful about constructionism. And the work that you've been kind of a pioneer at for many years, is the playful nature of, of some of this. I mean, it's, it's both playful, and it's also serious. Certainly that kind of shows up in in, you know, Scratch, which which you had a hand in, in designing and creating, right, can you say a little bit,

Yasmin: A paw, a paw. A paw.

Nathan: A paw? [all laugh] Nice turn. Can you say a bit about that sort of the ways, the way in which you think about play as part of maybe it's just accessibility, maybe it's the the main activity that people engage in, maybe it's none of those things. But I'm curious your thoughts on that.

Yasmin: I think a my, my start into kind of game design is a really good illustration of that. I remember working in Project Headlight, which was one of the school sites associated with the MIT Media Lab, with hundreds of computers, which was very unusual at the time, and kids were learning LOGO programming, creating software applications. And I still remember that day when, you know, a group came to me and said, you know, this is all really great. I mean, that we get to kind of program things, you know, but what we really want to make is a game. And I said, Oh, isn't that interesting? You know, I mean, so, so, so because they were all playing and there, I think there was this urge this need, not just to play, but part of play was also making. And I think this is nothing new. I mean, kids have always taken games on the street, clapping games, hopping games, street games, and modified them. So creating your own game on the computer was just a continuation of century old play practices, which have been around. It's just contrary to the game’s, rules of a marble game, which you can change very easily. The rules of the games on the computer were not very accessible. So I think the boundaries which we have drawn around playing versus making are really much more artificial than they are in real life. And, you know, I wrote a whole book Connected Gaming, because I realized that this was an academic distinction, which had a long legacy in how gaming studies versus computer science studies had emerged. And that in reality, the playing and making go hand in hand. I mean, they're part of the same enterprise.

Nathan: I love that; I love, I love them the breakdown of that distinction. It's an academic distinction, it's fun to actually try to look at that from, from a kid's perspective and see how kind of ridiculous it is to suggest that [laughs] there's something different between making a game and playing a game. I want to go in a slightly different direction. And I want to talk about virtual worlds. When we think of virtual worlds, we often think of something like Second Life, which was extremely popular in the, I guess, the 2000s. But before then, before Second Life, there was a virtual world for children, for them to explore together, for them to play together to play games together, called Whyville. And you did a fair amount of work, studying how children interacted, how children played in this virtual space. And I'm wondering if you could just say a little bit about you know, what are some of the interesting things you discovered about how kids play when they're together in these virtual spaces?

Yasmin: So Whyville looks like an animated cartoon, where all the players, where you have an avatar, and you go around; you can play games, I mean, you can chat with others; you can just hang out; you can make your own avatar parts and sell them. It's a 2d world. So it's fairly simple. I mean, but Minecraft, for instance, is also very simple, just pixels. And it's a place to hang out online, essentially. Funny that you bring up Whyville right now that we're in the midst

Nathan: [laughs] I know.

Yasmin: of an epidemic. [Haeny laughs]

Nathan: I know.

Yasmin: And what attracted me to Whyville, which is often billed as the first kind of graphic virtual world for tweens was that they ran a virtual epidemic called Whypox. And every fall, when the flu came around, the kids would get like red dots on the screen, and they would sneeze, the chat would be interrupted. And I thought that was such a terrific way of introducing, I mean, a whole community to the idea of a pandemic outbreak. You know, 30 years ago, that was so unusual. For me, it was kind of something participatory and experiential at the same time. I think what what interested me is how is it that kids of that age, come together in thousands and learn how to play with each other? To me that was unprecedented in history, because most of the research, and the studies on children's play are all I mean, neighborhood located. So that was I mean, Whyville was this question, What brings thousands of tweens together kids who don't necessarily know each other? And what are some kind of meaningful ways to take advantage of that large number. And I think we want to figure out as educators, how can we create safe and productive spaces, which I don't think is something which should be left entirely just to companies.

Haeny: That resonates with me so much. I totally agree with that. Because, I think what you're talking about is also just having the space to work out some really serious and difficult issues, right, and being able to do that in a community with your peers, which is very different than having it mediated by an adult, right, or someone who has some authority or power over you. And it just made me think about that with like children's play, right that it is sometimes like they talk about a lot of violent things sometimes. They'll talk about their sexuality, right? They'll talk about things that maybe are a little uncomfortable to us. But more than like the topic or the thing that's right in front of us, there's also something that's under that right that the community kind of brings to light. And I think that is such a, I mean, that's something that I hear you say over and over again in these last, you know, few minutes is that idea of community and being able to work out some of that in a social group, in a space. And that doesn't have to always be a geographic neighborhood space, right? It doesn't even have to be school, right, that it could be in these virtual communities as well.

Yasmin: Yeah. And the boundary pushing, I mean, one of my favorite topics has become the cheating, which goes on, I mean, the cheating, you know, with your chat license, which by the way, is not okay, most kids understand that you need to know the rules about what information to share. I was a chaperone in the after school club during which Whyville took place, and every afternoon, I would come. And it was very quiet; kids were busy playing. And I was always kind of curious what was happening in the rooms because nobody was doing anything. And then like years later, when we looked at the log files, we found out number one, all the flirting, which was going on, [Haeny and Nathan laugh] nobody ever talked about it in interviews, because they knew that was not desirable. And the scamming. The scamming. [Haeny laughs] I mean, kids got scammed, and retaliated, but they didn't turn all into scammers for the rest of their life; it was just a transitional period. And so that made me wonder how can we support children and kind of working through this process on what adequate responses are and dealing with the situation?

Nathan: I think the work that you've done over the years with, with Whyville and with Scratch kind of fits into that category of not, you know, you've done a lot of design work, where you're building things to encourage certain kinds of conversations or certain kinds of behaviors or certain kinds of thinking, but also, you know, the study of what emerges from it; what sort of emerges naturally, how can we support that? How can we find find value in that I think it's such an important part of this conversation,

Yasmin: And also all the failures, you know, [Nathan laughs] Scratch is a success story and Whyville, in a way too but, you know, it's not as easily replicable. I mean, we have some successful examples where people have succeeded, but to be really understand, I mean, what the kind of building blocks and principles are, that I mean, you know, create and cam also sustain these kind of communities.

Nathan: Yeah, don't worry, I'll cut that; we'll cut that part where you're talking about failures. I know that we've everything [Haeny laughs] we've done has always been a success. So we'll make sure we cut any any mentione to any failure [Haeny and Yasmin laugh]

Yasmin: No. Failure is important! [Nathan and Haeny laugh] I love failure. I'm only writing about failure, and right now, because I think actually for too long, we have focused just on making things successful, not realizing that along the design of any artifact, there’re all the, the failures, the things which didn't work out but which are very productive for learning.

Nathan: Abso-Absolutely. You and I've also both done a lot of work in kind of the maker community and the maker spaces where, where we invite kids to use creative technologies and prototyping tools to electronics to build things that are interesting or valuable or meaningful to them, but to use physical tools and technologies, not just bits and atoms, you know, as we sometimes say. In particular, though, you've done a lot of work in E-textiles, which, which, you know, I want to maybe give a brief description of. It's sort of like, rather than sitting down with a soldering iron and, and wire, you can sit down with a needle and, and some conductive thread, and you find yourself doing a lot more sewing than, than soldering. Can you say a little bit about, you know, from all of your work on this, like, what are the some of the differences between inviting young people in particular, to play with electronics using soldering irons and wires versus playing with electronics using thread and needle and textiles?

Yasmin: I think, to this day, my favorite textile project is a turn signal jacket, which Leah Buechley designed. And it was a really great illustration of a jacket, but you have arrows on the back, and then you have switches in your sleeves. And so if you're biking and you want to turn right or left, you can just hit the right switch, and then your right arrow turn is flashing on the back of your jacket and indicating to other drivers that you are planning to turn right. And it's a beautiful illustration, how kind of wearability and functionality can kind of come together. Leah really brought it together by kind of calling it the high and the low. And, so I think we, we have these perceptions of certain technologies are high value or a complicated; soldering, It's a valued skill, but sewing really isn't. Even though both of them if you learn how to sew, you realize I mean, it's a craft, which requires time and practice, like soldering or anything else does. But we give different value judgments to them. Kids realize how deep ingrained these stereotypes are. I mean, nowadays, by the way, very few kids know how to sew. But it's so deeply ingrained that like, as one boy said, Oh, sewing is a girl's sport, you know. And I remember my, to this day, my first project in the middle school and I was sitting in an open area was like eight or nine kids around the table. And we were all stitching circuits, you know, to make these LED glows, and kids were coming around and looking, you know, they were obviously curiously and the boys were at pain to say they will never say they would sew their own, he would say we're doing circuits, [Nathan laughs] you know that the needle was just the forbidden topic. And I love that because I think it helps us to launch discussions, also in schools, which I feel are very important with youth on why we think certain technologies or tools are better or more valued than others and what this says about us and also society. And so it doesn't become an artificial discussion, but a discussion which is actually grounded in student's own experiences.

Haeny: I mean, it's so embedded in every little thing, right, that, I think we've been kind of getting rid of the vestiges of what the visible parts of that gendering is, like, what you just said about, you know, you're in Home Ec, and you're in Industrial Arts, or whatever it is; I think those visible markers are gone. But there's just so much underlying stuff, you know, like; I think about, I work with young children. And so I think I think about like, we're, you know, we've gotten more diverse books, quote, unquote, but we still have worksheets, that look a certain way that communicate a certain message, right, we still have things on the wall, that are static and represent, you know, gender, or race or any of those identities in a way that still remain static. And those things kind of still go unquestioned, right? So there's so much that probably needs to happen that's lying underneath the surface of all of that. And I was gonna say that, being someone that doesn't understand all of this as highly as you both do. But as an avid watcher of Project Runway [laughs] for many seasons.

Nathan: Yes. Yes.

Haeny: I was, I think the way that you're talking about the intersection of technology and textile, especially nowadays is, you know, it's still relevant, right? Because I think about how Project Runway evolved so that technology became such a big part of the making, right, so that they had like 3d printers, they had different kinds of materials,

Yasmin: Yeah.

Haeny: right? They had digital, you know, digital technologies that kind of created different kinds of ways of sewing, you know, so I thought, it's so relevant, right? And you could see it out there. So that really helped me, and even thinking about the high low of that, right? Like, why do we all of a sudden think that sewing is low technology? And then what happens to that definition, when it becomes blurry with high technology? Does it still stand?

Yasmin: This is, Project Runway is a great, great example. I mean, the whole category of wearables, of which E-textiles are a part, has really kind of emerged in the public mind just recently. I mean, and before, this was actually also one of the challenges in the beginning to find a justification for electronic textiles, because there was already robotics, why did we need something else. And now there's a whole different application category. And people understand that when you do robotics, versus wearables, those are two very different genres with different affordances and kind of histories. And, and I think, but it also helps in a larger sense to make accessible to students, the different perspectives of computing, I mean, so it isn't just on the screen, it is also out there in the world. And, and, and the different functions of what it means when you wear technology in your body with your body. The sensing, the clothing, the soft versus the kind of hard, I think just provides important different contexts for, for learning. You know, it's not necessarily one is better than the other. I think it's always about, you know, having multiple opportunities.

Nathan: Well, so you, you've been at the at the forefront of so many different areas of play over the years. What's next, where, where are kids playing in three years from now, or ten years from now?

Yasmin: Funny that you ask, [Haeny and Nathan laugh] I mean, just like, six, seven years ago, with my colleague Orkan Telhan here at Penn, who had kind of started the, exploring the area of biological design. And I think it's an exciting area, you know, that you can have bio cement, I mean, you know, you grow stones, essentially in vat [Nathan laughs] I mean, that you can have leather, which is grown that you can so that, you know, there's a whole new range of possibilities of what you can make when you grow things. And so, to me, I don't see them as kind of that separate from and we make things with textiles, when we make things on the computer screen digitally. Now, we have living media, which comes in bricks, in, you know, in manageable entities which you can put together to create new things, you know, create your own, grow your own construction kits. Y- out of recyclable material using mycelium or kombucha. I mean, it's all possible the prototypes already, and the ideas are already out there. And so this will be a very different kind of arrangement from toys, which are no longer made out of plastic, but out, you know grown out of recyclables. You know, when, when I told my parents that I was writing my dissertation on games, they were thinking I was out to lunch.

Nathan: [laughs]

Yasmin: I mean, you know, this did not fit into, you know, the, the paradigm of higher education. But nowadays, people don't see that as contradictory as it was maybe 20, 30 years ago. And likewise, I think our perception, perspectives on computing or on biology will also change. You know, we just need the compelling examples, I think, the evocative objects which resonate with people and help them see what the possible connections are.

Haeny: You know, we brought in a lot of people, including yourself that have been experts around play and researchers of play. And I think we firmly believe that as researchers of play, that we should also be engaged in play ourselves. So we usually end the podcast with the question of “what's poppin” meaning what's in the popular culture landscape that's kind of capturing your attention or imagination. So what is out there in the larger culture that is poppin’ on your radar? And maybe Nathan could start us off.

Nathan: So-- So what's poppin for me? I am currently playing a video game called Val Haim and it is like a Viking Sims meets Minecraft. [laughs] A Viking, Viking Sims Minecraft game is basically how I would describe it. It is so fun and so ridiculous. It is you basically sort of enter the world as a nude Viking and you have to [Yasmin laughs] right away start picking up branches and rocks and combining them to make a stone axe that you can chop down a tree and then you can make a you know, a campfire to find some shelter for the night. And so the whole game is just kind of this you know, an unending crafting quest. Very, very open and creative, you can build your own houses you can get kind of crazy with what you build. And it is so delightful. One of the reasons it's also so delightful is it kind of has this multiplayer component where you can have these relatively, you know, smallish size servers of just your friends, so I have a l-, we have a little server with with like five of my learning scientist colleagues [Haeny laughs] where everyone's out we get together as our Viking avatars [Yasmin laughs] and we build a little a little house together we go mining together and it is, it is so fun. It is definitely poppin. It’s worth checking out.

Yasmin: Wow

Haeny: [laughing] That sounds awesome.

Yasmin: Yeah, so I mean Nathan might know but I I'm still going through this period of playing Among Us I mean that that was-

Nathan: Yes.

Yasmin: -like you know, you know once in a while something kind of captures your your attention and it's a really interesting game because it's like a mini massive online role playing games because you're Max 10 people in a room and then one of you will see imposter and I notice whenever you're being randomly selected your heart rate immediately shoots up [Nathan laughs] I mean, and but it's, I think such an interesting game mechanic that the same game by just switching roles kind of creates such a different experience because now your, your, your, your goal is to slay everybody you know, I mean, [Nathan laughs] rather than to do the menial tasks and the spaceship you know, which are not particularly interesting and you master over time. But I thought maybe the spaceship is a metaphor that we're all in spaceships right now hurtling can't really go out and and then I realized, you know, I'm playing actually was teenagers when I looked at the demographics [Haeny laughs] and I think, you know, I think you know, they probably don't know they're, they're playing with a 60 plus year old woman. [Nathan laughs] And it's like, you can tell sometimes by the the lingo, which comes up and the topics on, because you don't often know your co-players, you just kind of go into the public rooms unless what Nathan does you play, and so we even played this as a research team too,

Nathan: Yeah.

Yasmin: with a local channel. It was hilarious, [Nathan laughs] you know, I always say, you know, the team, which slays together, you know, stays together. So it’s- [Nathan and Haeny laugh]

Nathan: I wonder how much delight students take in killing each other in your lab is what I'm curious about. [all laugh] They can work through some things.

Haeny: They're working through it. Yes, exactly. [all laugh]

Nathan: Haeny, what's poppin? What's poppin for you?

Haeny: During my sabbatical, I've been trying to be more creative. And so one of the things that I've been embarking on is trying to make zines. So I've been, like doing mini zines and things like that. And I am really good at deconstructing other people's zines and writing down ideas. And for some reason, I can't sit down and do my own. [Nathan laughs] And so, I have been doing that. But what I've been doing, what I've come across, is, in the midst of like, all this anti Asian racism, right, and all th-, all the media buzz that's been going around about that, I've been engaging with some of the people that I follow on Instagram, that have put out a lot of good content, I think, related to how we should respond as Asian Americans, and just, even thinking about our own identities and the intersection of, you know, supporting Asian communities, as well as acknowledging things like anti blackness in our own communities and stuff like that. And so, in the middle of it, I came across this Instagram account called Korea-angry, or Korea, Koreangry or something. And basically, she has this great, I think you two would both like it, because she has, she makes comics and zines. But she also makes these very interes-, intricate, like clay, backdrops and like, you know, puts a lot of material together to make these, like really creative expressions for her comics. And I think they’re super cool. And so I ordered like a couple of her zines and then I went on to her About page, which I thought was kind of amazing, because I'm just gonna read it. Okay, so, and, Joe, you might have to bleep some of this out. I'm not sure. So she says you may or may not relate to my comics. If you do and find yourself chuckling through my non censored and twisted humor, that's great. Virtual high fives to ya. If you don't get it, that's fine too. *Beep* Off and don't tell me. [Yasmin and Nathan laugh] I just like loved that.  because I really needed that in these last couple of weeks because I don't know for some reason I've just gotten like extra angry about things. And I just like that, like, if you don't like it, get out of here and don't tell me about it. Thank you. [all laugh] So that's what's poppin for me.

Yasmin: Yeah.

Nathan: That's cool. I'm looking at the Instagram now these are these are delightful.

Haeny: [laughs] They're great. They're great.

Yasmin: [laughs] I will. I will check that out too.

Haeny: [laughs]

Nathan: Super great. Well, thank you very much. Yasmin for being here with us today, hanging out with us talking about your your extensive body of work around play in so many different places, games, coding, making, biology. So much fun to go through all that with you.

Yasmin: Yeah, thanks for having me. This was great.

[music fades in]

Haeny: Yeah. Thank you.

Nathan: What a great chat! So, during the episode today, Yasmin and I mentioned a book we co-edited together with our colleague Matthew Berland called Designing Constructionist Futures. If the ideas of constructionism excite you; if you’re interested in Yasmin’s work, I’d highly encourage you to check it out! We’ve put a link to the website so that you can find it easily. Thanks to Yasmin for talking with us today! And thank you all for listening!

Haeny: Before you leave we have a huge announcement! We’re recording a special Pop and Play live episode on April 26th at 11:30am Eastern. Yes, you’ve heard it right. A live episode of Pop and Play. If you’d like to ask us questions about play, want to find out about our latest obsessions, including what video game(s) continue to make Nathan cry and “get in his feelings” or just want to hang out and laugh with us, go to tc.edu/popandplay for more information. This episode was edited by Lucius Von Joo and Joe Riina-Ferrie.

Nathan: Pop and Play is produced by Haeny Yoon, Lalitha Vasudevan, Joe Riina-Ferrie and myself, Nathan Holbert, at Teachers College, Columbia University with the Digital Futures Institute. For a transcript and to learn more, visit tc.edu/popandplay. Our music is selections from Leafeaters by Podington Bear, used here under a creative commons attribution non-commercial license. Thanks for listening and we’ll see you next time!  

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