Episode 2: Reality TV with Ioana Literat

• Interested in hearing more about media literacy? Check out Ioana Literat and colleagues on this panel devoted to the subject.
• Check out some more of Haeny's explorations in how children explore subversive pop icons in Stars, Rainbows, and Michael Myers: The Carnivalesque Intersection of Play and Horror in Kindergarteners’ (Trade)marking and (Copy)writing.
• Check out a game that Ioana Literat and her collagues designed around youth media literacy called LAMBOOZLED! 
• Outside of reality TV, Ioana Literat also looks deeply into youth participation on popular platforms. Read through her interview with John Herrman of the New York Times: TikTok Is Shaping Politics. But How? 
  
  

Nathan Holbert:
So, on this episode of Pop and Play, we're talking reality TV.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes. And, we decided to start with the OG of reality TV, Keeping up with the Kardashians. Those people that know me know that I'm kind of obsessed with the Kardashians and not necessarily always in a good or bad way.

Nathan Holbert:
I got to be honest, Haeny. I wasn't exactly excited about prepping for this episode. I mean, I love talking to you, but watching reality TV, even thinking, let alone talking about the Kardashians, it's just a lot for me.

Haeny Yoon:
I mean, I just think that they have a lot of important influence in our society and culture. So, I feel like everyone just ends up talking about them because they're always everywhere.

Nathan Holbert:
Thankfully though, you weren't stuck with just talking to me, Haeny.

Haeny Yoon:
Thank God.

Nathan Holbert:
Our friend and colleague, Ioana Literat, joined us to chat reality TV, as well as help us to make sense of the culture and communities that exist around these shows.

Haeny Yoon:
I mean, I also want to note that you kind of got away with one here, because we didn't really end up even talking much about the Kardashians at all.

Nathan Holbert:
Point me.

Haeny Yoon:
And, although we started off talking about Keeping up with the Kardashians, we got into some pretty expansive discussions about reality TV.

Nathan Holbert:
You want to help us reflect on what reality TV is and what it tells us about our society, what it means for freedom and social relationships and all of the complicated, tense, problematic, joyful things that it tells us about our current cultural moment.

Haeny Yoon:
Can't wait.

Nathan Holbert:
Yee haw. I mean, I feel like in honor of this week's episode talking about the Kardashians, the way we really should have done this is one of us should have walked in the door, and then just plopped in a really big over plush leather chair, and be like, "Oh, Haeny. Oh, my God." And then, I don't know what comes next, but something like that.

Haeny Yoon:
What comes next is we eat a salad.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. We plop in our chairs. We sigh, and then we have somebody else bring us a salad.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay. So, I guess I'll start by taking full responsibility for why we're watching this, or why we decided to talk about the Kardashians. And, I think we were talking about maybe going with our relevant interests. So, you did the intellectual role playing and thinking about gaming and what social life of gaming is like, right? So, people have written about that. It's very respected in academia and all of those other disciplines and spaces. Yes. And I was like, "Well, can we just watch reality television?" Because we all know that is also an intellectual academic thing.

Nathan Holbert:
Absolutely.

Haeny Yoon:
And, I think this actually came from a lot of people's pandemic viewing habits. I kind of always liked reality television. I don't know why. I was very drawn into it ever since The Real World in the 90s, when I was one.

Nathan Holbert:
Wait, what? That's a lie.

Haeny Yoon:
I'm actually Gen Z millennial. But, I think during the pandemic, my reality television viewing habits increased by triple fold beyond what I was doing. Because one, there were a lot available, and two, it was just an escape almost, as to real life. And so, that's kind of why we decided to go with a reality classic, Keeping up with the Kardashians, which you kind of knew a little bit about Nathan. No?

Nathan Holbert:
I think I'm aware of it, in the same way that I think everyone probably on the planet, but certainly everyone in the United States is aware of it. So, here's what I knew about the Kardashians. I knew about Keeping up with the Kardashians. I knew it was a show about Kim Kardashian and her family. I knew they were super rich, and I knew that it was probably going to mostly be about them doing super rich things, and complaining about how difficult life is. That was my expectation going in.

Haeny Yoon:
Which is partly accurate.

Nathan Holbert:
Partly. Right. I had no idea how many seasons there were. There are so many seasons.

Haeny Yoon:
20.

Nathan Holbert:
That's an insane number of seasons, 20 seasons. And, we watched a bit of an episode from this season, season 20, the ripe old age of 20. And, we also watched a bit of season one, I believe, right?

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah, the first episode actually. Yeah. My recollection of us all watching Keeping up with Kardashians together was that they were not even part of it. I don't actually remember watching it that much, but I feel like we ended up not even talking about them that much.

Nathan Holbert:
But, I'm curious about you. And, I know we had to have this discussion before, so I know the Kardashians that are not your favorite show on the planet, or anything like that. But, what is it about this show in particular, or other similar types of shows, that you enjoy? What is the thing that makes you enjoy them? What makes them fun? What makes them playful for you?

Haeny Yoon:
I don't know. It's just the spectacle of it all, right? I feel like a lot of people who talk about play, right, have talked about that, right? The spectacle of play, I hate to be throwing Bakhtin in here, but very carnival esque, right? You don't know what's going to happen. People are just making fools of themselves all the time. No one cares what everybody else thinks. There's no hierarchy or respectability. You just kind of do what you want to do. And, I kind of like the whole spectacle of it, and the fact that we can engage in this spectacle of watching this thing.

Nathan Holbert:
Is it okay to enjoy watching Keeping up with the Kardashians? Or, is that in and of itself, somehow or another, a problem?

Haeny Yoon:
I think similar to when kids play with violent themes, right, or video games. How do we square that circle? Do we constantly want to police content? Or, do we want to give people the tools to think critically about this content and the agency to decide for themselves, right? And I think, how do we decide what kind of content is acceptable and what isn't, right? And then, if we continue to do that, where is the line? Because then there's a danger of making all content, a certain kind of norm content that reflects some dominant person's view, right? And so, that's happened for a long time where everything is about whiteness and propagating a dominant middle white class culture. And, you could do that by policing content, right? Or, do we create tools for people to kind of engage, right?

Nathan Holbert:
This is the question, right? Is it fun to engage with this ugliness?

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I think there's a platform for it, and people just like watching drama. Everybody talks about how they hate it, but then they love it.

Nathan Holbert:
So, I like drama as much as the next guy, gal, whoever. But, I don't really enjoy the Kardashian type drama. I don't really enjoy the Housewives type drama, and there's other reality TV that I can certainly enjoy. I was saying earlier when we were just chatting that I love to watch something like The Great British Bake Off, right? The other reality TV show I used to like to watch was Project Runway. And, both of these shows are shows structured around competitions. They are competitions. Project Runway is a competition of fashion designers, and The Great British Bake Off is a competition of English home bakers, right?

Nathan Holbert:
But in each case, they are trying to showcase their particular skills. They're trying to showcase what they're good at. And, both shows are not structured around winning at all costs, destroying your competition so that you can come out victorious. And in fact, in both of those shows, I've watched The Bake Off more recently, so I can maybe speak to that one, but in Bake Off people are frequently helping each other. Somebody's running late. They're behind. And, somebody comes to her and says, "How can I help you? What can I hold? What can I do?" And, they're helping each other because they recognize that their winning is about their skill, not whether or not the other person is good or not, right? And so, that's drama that I can really get excited by. And, that makes me better, I think, than you.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay. But I guess, would the Kardashians be another form of a sort of play game, right? Perhaps we have these competition shows, which I enjoy a good competition show. I love Project Runway. I love Top Chef. So, I used to have little watching parties at my house, Top Chef and Project Runway. Yeah, because it's a fun thing to watch with other people. And, that is a type of game and type of play. I also think watching Kardashians is also a type of game, type of play. It's just a different kind of game that you don't want to play.

Nathan Holbert:
I don't think I see it. It feels like a stretch to me. How is it a game? Help me understand.

Haeny Yoon:
I mean, I firmly believe that. I think we had this conversation at the beginning about, are they the cast? Are they characters? Are they people, right? And, I really think that they're playing characters. They know who they're playing, and they're playing that character really well. And, I think I told you this already. I might have watched 20 minutes of a Paris Hilton documentary that came out recently. And, Paris Hilton was Kim Kardashian's kind of foot stool to fame, right, because Paris Hilton was really popular. She had that reality show, Simple Life. And--

Nathan Holbert:
Back when you were one, she was huge.

Haeny Yoon:
Back when I was one, I barely knew about her. I'm just kidding. I was full fledged adult. But Paris, she was just another rich socialite that just walked around, being so annoying. And, I forgot what her tagline was. It was, "That's hot. That's hot." She would just say it all the time. And, one thing that she said in that documentary was basically, "I was playing a character." That's not even how she talks. She just figured out how to do that, "That's hot." She just did it, and she just played a character because she knew the character that she had to play. And, I find it to be really fascinating, right? Because that character that she played so well and our engagement and our willingness to play with her, created this character, a caricature of a person, right? And, I think they're kind of doing the same thing. I think they're creating characters, and they're really good at it.

Nathan Holbert:
That seems right to me. But, I think the thing that's so weird about it and maybe this is just a hangup, is that's the same as every other television show, right, that people are playing characters. We don't assume that the actor and the character are the same person, and we sort of suspend our disbelief. We engage with the story and the drama or whatever that unfolds, right? But, there's something in reality TV show. There's also this second layer here where you suspend your disbelief that the character and the person are separate. You sort of choose to believe this is actually how Kim Kardashian is. Or, you choose to believe that this is actually the life of Paris Hilton, right? And, that brings you some sort of joy there, as well.

Nathan Holbert:
So, I don't quite know what to do with that. But, essentially what you're getting at is an actor in a TV show is no different than Paris Hilton on her TV show, or Kim Kardashian and on her TV show. But, the difference is the way in which we enjoy it in one is, "This is drama. This is a play. This is fantasy." And, the other is, "Aha. This is real life." And, this is weird. I don't know what to do with that. That's just a weird thing.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I mean, didn't you ever watch a movie where this person, this actor was playing a fictional character, but then you ascribed those characteristics onto that person, like Tom Hanks, right? Do we really know if Tom Hanks is the nicest person in the world? I don't know, but he always plays someone really thoughtful and kind on screen. And, you're like, "Yeah, I like him."

Nathan Holbert:
You take Tom Hank's name out of your mouth.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I don't know. I think he

Nathan Holbert:
Totally. Totally.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. I'm thinking about that Deborah Messing quote, that tweet that I shared with you, where Kim Kardashian was hosting Saturday Night Live recently. Which I will say, I think she actually did a good job, but most of it was making fun of herself and that's always the best SNL is

Nathan Holbert:
That's true.

Haeny Yoon:
When people are willing to make fun of themselves, which she's able to do 100%. But, the tweet was basically, "Why Kim Kardashian? I mean, I know she's a cultural icon, but SNL has hosts generally who are performers, who are there to promote a film, TV show or album launch. Am I missing something?" said Deborah Messing. And, I think it goes back to your quote, what you just said, right? I mean, how do we decide who is worthy of being called or playing a character well? I would say she's actually playing a character really well.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. I think that's fair. Yeah. I might roll my eyes at Kim Kardashian. But, no, the idea that some or another she's not worthy of hosting SNL seems very petty. Haeny, you had I thought, a delightful game that you prepared for us to play today. And, I have a feeling I'm going to lose terribly at it, but I'd like to play it.

Haeny Yoon:
All right. So, I wanted to start off by giving you a bunch of quotes, and I'm just going to say them. I'll try to say them in the way that they would say them, but I don't think that's going to happen. And, you have to guess which one of the Kardashian Jenners said it.

Nathan Holbert:
Okay.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay? I'll start with this one. Okay. "So, I feel like every year has a new energy, and I feel like this year is really about like the year of realizing stuff. Everyone around me, we're all just realizing things."

Nathan Holbert:
You are killing the acting here. So, we have established already that I don't know these characters very well at all. And, I will tell you that I have in front of me right now, a sheet with each of the pictures of each of the characters and their names underneath the sheet, because I don't remember who's who. So, I'm going to have a cheat sheet here. That quote though, it sounds very sort of Kim Kardashian-esque. Is it Kim?

Haeny Yoon:
It is not Kim.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, is it Khloe?

Haeny Yoon:
No, it's not Khloe.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh, okay. I'm going to stop guessing then. Who was it?

Haeny Yoon:
It is the youngest. It's Kylie.

Nathan Holbert:
It's Kylie.

Haeny Yoon:
Kylie said this. Yes, because that's how she'd like to think that a new year has been for her.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Haeny Yoon:
Okay. When I say the next quote, I'm going to say that this is expansive of the main characters in the Kardashian clan. Okay. So, remember we have Scott Disick. Do you remember who he is?

Nathan Holbert:
Yes. He's married to somebody, or was married to somebody. And, he was very annoying. He was married to Kourtney?

Haeny Yoon:
Yes, to Kourtney, the oldest Kardashian, and they've been together for a really long time. Yeah. Okay. So, the next quote is, "I'd like to work as little as possible and make as many dollars as possible."

Nathan Holbert:
Okay. So, when you were trying to set this up, were you saying that this is a Scott? What's his name? Scott Disick-like character, because it sounds like that could be him, right?

Haeny Yoon:
Yes. Ding. Ding. Ding. You got that right with no help from me.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah, right. What if I told you the answer before I asked the question?

Haeny Yoon:
Okay, last one. "I'll cry at the end of the day, not with fresh makeup."

Nathan Holbert:
Kris?

Haeny Yoon:
No.

Nathan Holbert:
Oh. Kim?

Haeny Yoon:
Yes.

Nathan Holbert:
Okay. It had to be one of those two.

Haeny Yoon:
Yes. She has a famous line where she just says, "I'm not going to cry right now. I'm going to cry at the end of the day." She doesn't want to mess up her makeup.

Nathan Holbert:
That's pretty deep though. There's something there. That was hard.

Haeny Yoon:
No, I think it was pretty good. It's not the answer. It's about

Nathan Holbert:
It's the journey.

Haeny Yoon:
It's the journey. So, we're going to have guests on soon. And, I think the thing that we are left still with is how to think about what do we find acceptable? How do we navigate the really messy terrain of play that makes us feel a certain way? Whether one, we don't like it? Whether we're uncomfortable with it? Whether it brings up a lot of tensions that we want children, youth, adults to push up against? What happens when we encounter those things that don't necessarily follow that trajectory that we want? Is there space to watch reality television? Or, should we just all stop watching it so that we can make a better world? Quote unquote. Okay. So, today we have our very good friend, Ioana, a good friend to both of us, good friend to the pod. How are you doing?

Ioana Literat:
Hi. I'm so excited to be here. I feel like I'm a guest host on RuPaul's Drag Race, or one of those panels. And always, that's what they say, "I'm so excited to be here. I've been a fan for a long time." But, it's true.

Nathan Holbert:
Long time listener, first time guest. May I start by asking a question, Ioana? You have a lot of expertise, both formally and informally in reality TV. Can I just ask why? What is it that draws you to this particular form of media?

Ioana Literat:
I also want to ask myself why. And, I think the answer is that it's always been social for me. It started in college with what some would say the golden age of reality TV, A Shot at Love with Tila Tequila, the Flavor Flav series, I Love New York, all those classic reality TV.

Nathan Holbert:
That's the golden age?

Ioana Literat:
I would say, yeah. Some would say I qualified and I think some would say. I think I would include myself in those some people.

Nathan Holbert:
The some?

Ioana Literat:
Yeah. And, we were all watching it in our dorms together with my roommates. And, those were some of my most cherished memories when we were watching them together and commenting. And, we were young people from so many different backgrounds and different cultures. And, this thing just brought us together with Franzia wine, on Wednesdays and Thursdays. And then, even now, sometimes I watch with my old roommate on FaceTime. I'm really happy that now Apple introduced this feature where you can actually watch together on FaceTime. I can't wait until the kids go to bed, so I can watch it with my sister-in-law. It's definitely a bonding, social thing. And, when I don't have anyone to comment with, I go to Reddit, and I'm sure we'll talk a lot about my involvement on this Reddit forums. But, it all really goes to show that it is quintessentially social for me, and it's all about commenting and interpretation, and then, that process of commenting and interpretation. And now, we're commenting and interpreting that process. So, it's very meta.

Haeny Yoon:
I mean, tell us what these Reddit groups actually look like. What is happening? How did you join it?

Ioana Literat:
The first one I joined was for 90 Day Fiancé, which I would say is my go to reality TV. I don't even want to call it a series. It's a metaverse now. If I had to pick for you, that would be the one I would pick for you to watch, because I think it's fascinating. So, it's all about Americans that are in relationships with foreigners. And then, they apply for this K-1 visa, which is a fiancé visa, where the foreigner comes to the US, and they have 90 days to either marry or leave. So, that's why it's called 90 Day Fiancé. I love it because of the cultural aspect, whether the American goes abroad or the foreigner comes here. It's really fascinating to me, just what parts of that culture are being highlighted, and of course, what parts are being hidden. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Is it mostly women that come that are the 90 Day Fiancé?

Ioana Literat:
You would think so, but it's a mix of both. Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, good.

Ioana Literat:
It's quite a good balance of both. I think to me, if we are to be frank, it's also relatable. I'm an immigrant married to an American, and I just love these dating shows. And so, I joined this Reddit forum for 90 Day Fiancé because I really wanted to have people to comment with, and I just really got sucked in. When I joined, it was very, very small. So, it felt very intimate. We knew each other's user names. We were really creating social relationships and friendships because the forum was really where it felt intimate and small. And then, we also used to meet in person. We used to go and see the season premier or the season finale in these bars in Chelsea. But now, because the popularity of the show grew, those forums really exploded as well. So now, I'm still on them. I'm on the subreddits for all the shows that I watch. But, it doesn't have that intimacy, and that intimate field that it had at the beginning.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. It looks like there is 284,000 users.

Ioana Literat:
Right. Users, yeah. And you ask, "What goes on there?" I guess, yeah. It's all about commentary. And for me, the pleasure lies in thinking about what my interpretation is, and kind of comparing it to how others are interpreting it. Yeah, holding up your ideas, your interpretations against others, and sometimes the interpretations match up, and sometimes they don't. And when they don't, I really like understanding how others see it, and how they interpret the same content. And, I learn a lot based on that, too.

Nathan Holbert:
One thing that's a clear and obvious kind of corollary here is sports, right? But, I wonder if part of the draw to this is that today, especially it feels like a safe place for us to disagree and to argue. We can have debates, and we can have conversations, and we can sort of kind of get quote unquote angry at each other for having a different interpretation of event. But, it still is in many ways, not the same as a lot of the other debates we're having in the world, where those become so divisive that it's tough for us to sort of see past them to engage with each other beyond those, if we're on opposite sides of that debate. Whereas here, I could think your theory of that particular couple on 90 Day Fiancé is nonsense, but we could still probably watch the next episode together.

Ioana Literat:
Yeah. I think that

Nathan Holbert:
Maybe I'm going too far.

Ioana Literat:
No, I don't think you're going too far. I love that parallel. It's also interesting to me, from a academic perspective, how the different forums are even dealing with more political or divisive content, because now everything is political. And so, much of a reality TV is about identity, too. So, the different forums have different rules about how you can or cannot engage in the more divisive kind of conversations. But, I love your parallel to sports. And, it really reminded me of what I was talking about before with going to watch the season finale in that bar in Chelsea, because that was a sports bar, because we chose it because it had TVs. That was our Reddit filter, which I had never used before, like has TV, and we basically took over that bar.

Ioana Literat:
It was Sunday, because 90 Day Fiancé is always on Sundays. And, there was football on TV, and there were people in there watching football. And then, we descended upon the bar and we're like, "We want 90 day Fiancé instead of the game on all these TVs." And then, they started us on one TV, and we were in one little corner. And then, the group just started getting bigger and bigger, and we were taking over more and more TVs.

Nathan Holbert:
That's awesome.

Haeny Yoon:
I respect that totally.

Ioana Literat:
And, they probably thought we're such weirdos.

Haeny Yoon:
And, are they wrong?

Ioana Literat:
No.

Nathan Holbert:
They're not wrong, but it's not any weirder than a Mets fan, or whatever. It's

Ioana Literat:
I mean, it is a little bit weirder because we also had bingo games and prizes, and some people came dressed up as their favorite characters from the show. So, it is a little bit weirder, if we are to be honest.

Nathan Holbert:
All right. I don't know. I think I disagree, and I think people who are interested in a sports team or a particular sport, we take it very far. I mean, I think we got fantasy football, and everybody's wearing each other's jerseys. And I mean, it is the same. It's just a more kind of acceptable form of it from a societal standpoint.

Haeny Yoon:
I mean, I really like that argument. But to play devil's advocate, I also think that some of those really light topics can actually end up very divisive, right? Because I think about my husband, Neil went to Michigan State. So, we went to this one bar where Michigan State was playing Michigan. And, they were a bunch of Michigan fans mostly, and then a corner of Michigan State fans. And, everybody was just talking shit to each other. And then, this one guy threw a chair. He threw a chair in the bar. It was a little intense.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. You may be right. Maybe I assumed that you could have disagreements, but maybe you can have those disagreements if you're watching the same team. But if you're on different teams, maybe it becomes more of a problem.

Haeny Yoon:
Could be really intense, right? So, I feel like anything can be really intense. I think it happens in play, right? A very innocent game of playing whatever can turn very, very intense. I've seen it.

Ioana Literat:
And to me, so not to make it too geeky or bring it too much closer to my research interest, but I do think about this a lot in terms of moderation and governance. What is allowed? For instance, on the May 90 Day Fiancé subreddit, some people think that it's overly moderated, that you can't really have these really uncomfortable sometimes conversations, or heavy or political conversations. So, because of this feeling that it's too moderated, there was actually a splinter group called 90 Day Fiancé Uncensored that, yeah, splintered off from the main subreddit, and now has really grown. I'm part of both, because I really like to see how the conversations and the discourse is different. But, I thought that was really interesting.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. Oh, that's really cool. I have a question. So, for people that don't know, or I guess I don't know because I don't really participate in Reddit. What's the difference? So, why did you choose Reddit as your platform of choice? This goes back to your interests in online, right? Because, sometimes people use Twitter, right, and follow certain people and they talk about television shows on there in real time, right? Some people use Facebook groups or whatever. So, why Reddit versus the other ones?

Ioana Literat:
I like the way that the conversations are structured, right? That there's a thread, and then all the different comments, that they integrate media really well. I would say it's also not just an online community for me. The example that I gave about actually meeting up in a bar and watching this together really illustrates that. Well, for instance, for the holidays, we have a gift exchange. This is my coffee mug. You see? So, it's Darcy from 90 Day Fiancé, smoking a cigarette and having a meltdown. This is a very famous scene when she was saying, "I'm not a needy woman." I don't know if you can see it. So, I got this from a fellow Redditor that I don't even know who they are. I got it for Christmas as part of our Christmas exchange last year, and I gave someone else something. And, this year I'm participating again.

Nathan Holbert:
That's cool. I'm curious. So, Reddit in general is I have found to be a bit of a dramatic place. I feel like there's all, you mentioned the sort of schism and the subreddit and all that. Is a 90 Day Fiancé subreddit more or less dramatic, or just the same level of drama as the rest? Is there something about reality TV that draws the need for drama? Or, is that assumption completely false, I think we often have?

Ioana Literat:
I would say it's less dramatic than Reddit as a whole. I found this, even in my research that pop culture can really be a bridge that brings people together in a comparatively more civil way. Yeah, because there's that acknowledgement that we might differ on politics or opinions on certain issues, but we do have something in common. We're starting from this common ground, even if that common ground is this silly, fake reality TV show. And, I think there's definitely at least on 90 Day Fiancé, but on other ones too, but there's an openness towards learning from each other, which I really appreciate. For instance, there will be a immigration lawyer that is sharing their input into the K-1 visa process, or cultural experts. I don't know.

Ioana Literat:
There's going to be an Indian person giving in their perspective as to why Sumit's divorce was such a big deal, right, in Indian society. Or sometimes, it's different perspectives that rooted in identities. I don't know. A queer person talking about the first gay relationship in the 90 Day Fiancé universe, or how realistic that is in the Mexican context. So, I really get to learn a lot because these are perspectives I could never have, or even claim to fully understand based on my own identity. So, I don't want to make it too sappy, but really encountering these perspectives in these forms is a really powerful learning experience for me.

Haeny Yoon:
Yeah. So, this might be a follow-up question. So, I'm thinking about how in these subreddits you're privy to how a lot of different people are interpreting the same thing that you're watching, right? And, I think the reality television critique always, which I think is not something that we need to talk about here, because everybody knows that it's problematic, has its own issues and all of that. And so I guess, as you're looking at all these different people's interpretation involved in this metaverse, right? How do you think people should approach watching things like this in general? Are there tools to take up? Are there ways that people can come to the conclusions that you do? Know interesting perspectives? Have an idea of analyzing that, or thinking about it? Put your researcher educator hat on, and what are some critical tools that people should think about when they engage with maybe problematic media?

Ioana Literat:
Right. Well, so much of it is about media literacy, right? And, media literacy itself is rooted in representation. And, a lot of the problematic aspect of these shows are about representation, how women or minorities or even culture at large, is represented in these shows. And so, media literacy is definitely a way to engage with these shows and to turn this discourse into a valuable exercise and to turn it into a learning opportunity.

Haeny Yoon:
Tell us what you mean by media literacy.

Ioana Literat:
Well, I feel like now that discourse around media literacy has kind of been overshadowed to a certain extent by misinformation, fake news. But, it's really about being smart about media, in not only consuming media, but also producing media. That's another part that has kind of been overshadowed, because now the emphasis is so much on consumption. But, yeah. I mean, there's an opportunity to use examples from these shows as examples of the importance of media literacy. We can use these reality TV shows as resources, as tools, right, to stimulate media literacy and to stimulate a deeper understanding of not only representation, but also even how the larger media ecosystem works, because they do say so much about how media is made and shared and interpreted, and even what parts of culture are valued and foregrounded and what parts are not. It says so much about the production process. There's just so many ways in which you can use this as insight into media cultures at large.

Ioana Literat:
I made a bet with the students that I'll use an example from The Bachelor in every lecture, and I did. And, that was kind of an interesting process to me. It was a dare to me, right? A challenge for myself, to see can I really use this as an illustration of these very different cultural dynamics that I'm talking about, right? From global cultural dynamics to semiotics to Adorno and Horkheimer's The Culture Industry, to Marxism and all these different theories that we were learning about. And, The Bachelor kind of became one common ground or a common denominator, one example that was threaded throughout the course. And, I also find often that parody really helps highlight these more problematic areas and stimulate media literacy. I haven't used it in class, but I really love parody reality TV shows like The Joe Schmo Show. Have you ever seen that?

Haeny Yoon:
What is that?

Ioana Literat:
Or, SNL sometimes does reality TV parodies. The Joe Schmo Show was great because it kind of turned the reality TV premise, I guess, on its head. It was all these actors and just one actual person that thought that he's a contestant on the reality TV show. But, everyone else around him were actors and they were engaging in these really over the top situations to kind of test the limits of this one regular guy. I really recommend it because it exposes the artifice, I guess, of the format. It exposes the archetypes, the different characters in reality TV shows because each of these actors is basically representing one of those archetypes.

Nathan Holbert:
Did they have to take it off the air because the normal person ended up killing so many of the actors in the last season? I can't handle it.

Ioana Literat:
Yeah. I don't know why they took it off the air because I loved it. But, you could see that it wasn't very successful. The last season was on Spike TV. Who even watches Spike TV? To go back to your question, beyond the media literacy part, I think there's also a way to use these reality TV shows to advocate for a space for enjoyment, I guess, and a space for negotiated readings. I feel like our conversations about media are often about what's good and what's bad, and what's good popular culture and what's bad popular culture, and what you have the right to enjoy and what you shouldn't enjoy. And, that's part of the reason why I really like talking about it and outing myself as such a huge fan of reality TV shows. Because in a formal educational context, I like how my talking about The Bachelor in class or talking about 90 Day Fiancé at MASCLab happy hour. I feel like it opens me up as a whole person, right, a whole person that sometimes has less than lofty pleasures and hobbies.

Haeny Yoon:
I mean, I totally agree with that because I think that happens around children and youth play, right?

Ioana Literat:
Yes.

Haeny Yoon:
We kind of decide what sorts of things are acceptable, or able to come into this bounded place of the classroom, or bounded place of things that we

Nathan Holbert:
Even the home.

Haeny Yoon:
We can watch. Yeah, and even the home.

Ioana Literat:
Yeah.

Haeny Yoon:
And so, maybe it's a call to us to think about what other things might open up different kinds of ideas and play and perspectives.

Nathan Holbert:
Maybe this is a good time to ask about if you were pitching a new reality TV show. I came up with a couple. I'm curious if you guys had a chance to think of some new reality TV shows to put out into the world. Maybe Spike TV is listening. Maybe Netflix is looking for some new shows.

Haeny Yoon:
I mean, the reason why we wanted to ask this question too, is that it is really hard, right? And, this is how we can appreciate Kris Jenner. I read this article about how sometimes she gets together with her production team, her people, and they just kind of pitch ideas for reality television shows. And some of them, she's actually done and they flop. And others, she kind of does it, right? And, it works. And so, I just think it's so much harder to come up with an idea, right? I think about even when I have to write papers or do a presentation, it's actually kind of hard to see it through.

Nathan Holbert:
Do you want me to start? I can start with one if you'd like. Well, I've got one for ESPN, or maybe there's probably a NFL channel. And that is, I don't know if you guys have seen those mic'd up videos that the NFL used to always do. So whenever the game's on, they'd be like, "Okay, now we're mic'd up with the coach," or "We're mic'd up with the linebacker." And, you'd hear them talking during the game. They'd be like, "We're all amped up." They'd be yelling at each other. They'd be dancing and singing because they were happy about the play they just did. I think we need a Mic'd Up Eight and Under Edition, that is just kids playing soccer, playing tee-ball, and it's them cheering each other on, or it's the parents on the sidelines saying absurdly useless things like, "Hustle! Get the ball!" I think Mic'd Up Eight and Under Edition would be pretty awesome.

Ioana Literat:
I love that. I would watch it. I would definitely watch it. I would not only watch that, but also create a subreddit about it.

Nathan Holbert:
Yeah. Nice.

Ioana Literat:
Well, I have two related pitches, kind of like the opposite of Undercover Boss. You know Undercover Boss? Where the boss disguises themselves as an employee? Well, this is the opposite of that. So, kind of a lowly employee or someone that doesn't usually have power of decision, but whose life is directly affected by these decisions made about them, would get to be in charge. I don't know if for a day, or I don't know that the logistics of that. Okay, imagine a student running TC for a day, or something where the little guys are in charge. I want to shock the system, but I also want lasting change.

Haeny Yoon:
I have a conference next week for literacy that I have to go to, and I have to facilitate this study group with two of my grad school friends, who also now have tenure. And, our session is called The Road to Tenure, and we were texting back with each other and we're like, "Oh my God, what are we going to do for this? What are we supposed to be doing right now?" And, I was like, "This would be a much better reality show than a presentation." And then, at the end of it, if you win, you get

Ioana Literat:
You get tenure?

Nathan Holbert:
Can't be any worse than the real process.

Haeny Yoon:
So, usually on Pop and Play, we do a segment called What's Popping?, which is basically what is interesting to you or interesting to our guests about pop culture in this moment. So, we're going to go right to our guest, Ioana, who's going to tell us what's popping for her.

Nathan Holbert:
I want to hear what's popping for Ioana. Ioana, what's popping? Besides 90 Day Fiancé?

Ioana Literat:
Yeah. Does it have to be on reality TV or no?

Nathan Holbert:
No. No. It could be anything. It could be any media that you're really engaging with right now.

Ioana Literat:
Another one that I want to recommend to you guys that is definitely popping for me right now that doesn't really get a lot of love or attention is Small Town News on HBO.

Haeny Yoon:
Oh, I saw a preview for that. Is that good?

Ioana Literat:
It's so good. It's so good. It's just five episodes, I think. And, they're half an hour each, but it's so good. It's about this, yeah, small town news station in the middle of the Nevada desert, and how they're surviving, and covering the news, and covering the election, and how that reflects the larger politics in that community and among the staff.

Nathan Holbert:
Cool.

Ioana Literat:
And, I find myself loving it, and it's such a good, I don't know, glimpse into how the media worked, speaking of ways to understand the larger media ecosystems. That is a perfect text for that, too. And I just, I was expecting to enjoy it on more of an intellectual level, I guess. But, I was so engaged throughout, and it's funny, and it really made me laugh and cry. Honestly, watch it.

Nathan Holbert:
Ioana, thank you so much for being here. It is always a delight to see you and talk to you. And, I haven't gotten to do that enough in the past few years with this whole pandemic thing going on. So, thanks for hanging out with us and for helping us try to really understand and wrap our heads around all there is to learn about not just reality TV, but all the ecosystems and meta conversations that are happening around them. That was super awesome. Thank you.

Ioana Literat:
It was great being here. Thank you for inviting me. I hope I did, at least, not change your minds because Nathan, I think you're still going to be a hater of reality TV and the Kardashians.

Haeny Yoon:
Nathan has a newfound love now for reality TV.

Ioana Literat:
I doubt that, but I'm glad that at least I could tell you why it speaks to me, and why I get enjoyment from it.

Nathan Holbert:
Awesome. Thank you.

Haeny Yoon:
So glad Ioana could join us to teach us the important lessons of 90 Day Fiancé's subreddit etiquette. Nathan is looking forward to joining one himself. You can also catch him on the next episode of Keeping up with the Kardashians.

Nathan Holbert:
Pop and Play! is produced by Haeny Yoon, Nathan Holbert, Lalitha Vasudevan, and Joe Riina-Ferrie at Teachers College Columbia University with The Digital Futures Institute.

Haeny Yoon:
This episode was edited by Jen Lee and Billy Collins. For a transcript and to learn more, visit tc.edu/popandplay.

Nathan Holbert:
Our music is selections from Leafeaters by Podington Bear, used here under a creative commons attribution non-commercial license.

Haeny Yoon:

This Episode was assistant produced by Lucius Von Joo.

Nathan Holbert:

Thanks for listening, and we'll see ya next time.